Question for kilt historians and anyone else who wants to throw in their 2 cents

[MizzouScotsman]

I am a proud descendent MacDonald of Sleat. Now my true branch is MacDonald of Lochalsh. However, that branch was absorbed by Sleat due to the unfortunate demise of Alexander of Lochalsh and no sons to take his place.

While I am proud of being of Sleat, I wish to honor my of Lochalsh heritage. Now Celestine MacDonald of Lochalsh was heir to Ross. So a friend and I were discussing taking the Ross tartan as a base and creating a MacDonald of Lochalsh tartan. I am intending to contact the Chief of the MacDonald of Sleat and informing him of what I am doing (can't hurt to have a clan chief in your corner could it?).

So I guess my questions are -

1) Is it worth it to do this for what might be a small percentage of people who claim of Lochalsh as their heritage?

2) Would using the Ross tartan as a base be stepping on too many toes? I don't intend to use their tartan as my own but as a base for the colors, remove some and add others to make it original.

3) Would contacting the Chief of MacDonald of Sleat be worth it or a good idea?

4) This is for the historians who might know or fathom a guess, was there ever a tartan for MacDonald of Lochalsh which would make this whole exercise moot?

Thanks again in advance to the great rabble.

[Father Bill]

Darned if I know, but bless you for caring!

[Starhunter451]

No clue, but asking probably not hurt.

[RockyR]

I am a proud descendent MacDonald of Sleat. Now my true branch is MacDonald of Lochalsh. However, that branch was absorbed by Sleat due to the unfortunate demise of Alexander of Lochalsh and no sons to take his place.

While I am proud of being of Sleat, I wish to honor my of Lochalsh heritage. Now Celestine MacDonald of Lochalsh was heir to Ross. So a friend and I were discussing taking the Ross tartan as a base and creating a MacDonald of Lochalsh tartan. I am intending to contact the Chief of the MacDonald of Sleat and informing him of what I am doing (can't hurt to have a clan chief in your corner could it?).

So I guess my questions are -

1) Is it worth it to do this for what might be a small percentage of people who claim of Lochalsh as their heritage?

It's never going to be a "money maker" and I doubt any mill will carry it as a stock tartan. That being said, if it means something TO YOU, then go ahead and design and register it! It's not a cheap process... the registration is roughly $125 and the kilt will likely be $800 (ish) for a custom woven 8 yarder, but your tartan will be added to the register and you can call it your own, as can other MacDonalds of Lochalsh.

2) Would using the Ross tartan as a base be stepping on too many toes? I don't intend to use their tartan as my own but as a base for the colors, remove some and add others to make it original.

Not in my opinion. This type of thing is done all the time. Look at how many tartans are based on the Black Watch tartan... MacKenzie, Robertson Hunting, Campbell, Gordon, etc.

That being said, have you thought about designing a tartan using the COLORS from the MacDonald Sleat tartan, but based on the DESIGN of the Ross Hunting tartan? This way, it honors both.

3) Would contacting the Chief of MacDonald of Sleat be worth it or a good idea?

Would it be a nice idea? Sure! However, if history has taught us anything (see thread on the restricted Green Stewart tartan and asking permission from the Queen to wear it), when you ask a question, remember that you MAY NOT like the answer. As a wise attorney once said, never ask a witness a question that you don't already know the answer to.

The question becomes, what would you think / do / say if the Chief of MacDonald of Sleat answered you with a resounding "no, it's not OK"? It would be great to have 'official approval', but he make take exception to the fact that you're a sept who wants to represent themselves in their own right ('splintering off' as it were) in a tartan design.

4) This is for the historians who might know or fathom a guess, was there ever a tartan for MacDonald of Lochalsh which would make this whole exercise moot?

Thanks again in advance to the great rabble.

I looked through the Tartan Register and found a MacDonald of Lochmaddy, but none of Lochalsh.

http://tartanregister.gov.uk/qresult...cdonald&Page=1

That's just my $.02... well 4 questions may be $.08.

[Chas]

I agree with Rocky.

"The best laid schemes o' mice an' men gang aft a-gley."

[unixken]

As a wise attorney once said, never ask a witness a question that you don't already know the answer to.

That's a great way of saying "It's easier to beg forgiveness, than to ask permission."

Excellent reply, Rocky.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I am a proud descendent MacDonald of Sleat. Now my true branch is MacDonald of Lochalsh. However, that branch was absorbed by Sleat due to the unfortunate demise of Alexander of Lochalsh and no sons to take his place.

While I am proud of being of Sleat, I wish to honor my of Lochalsh heritage. Now Celestine MacDonald of Lochalsh was heir to Ross. So a friend and I were discussing taking the Ross tartan as a base and creating a MacDonald of Lochalsh tartan. I am intending to contact the Chief of the MacDonald of Sleat and informing him of what I am doing (can't hurt to have a clan chief in your corner could it?).

So I guess my questions are -

1) Is it worth it to do this for what might be a small percentage of people who claim of Lochalsh as their heritage?

2) Would using the Ross tartan as a base be stepping on too many toes? I don't intend to use their tartan as my own but as a base for the colors, remove some and add others to make it original.

3) Would contacting the Chief of MacDonald of Sleat be worth it or a good idea?

4) This is for the historians who might know or fathom a guess, was there ever a tartan for MacDonald of Lochalsh which would make this whole exercise moot?

Thanks again in advance to the great rabble.

Just a couple of passing thoughts:

1) I doubt it would be financially worth it to go down this path.
2) Why Ross? As I read it, the last chieftain of Loch Alsh died in 1518, and half his lands were inherited by his nephew, M'Donald of Glengarry, while the other half were sold to the M'Kenzies.
3) Most chiefs of my acquaintance are not overjoyed at the prospect of members of the diaspora inventing new clan tartans.
4) As far as there being a tartan for M'Donald of Lock Alsh, it's highly unlikely-- clan tartans as we now think of them are at best an 18th century invention, are really a 19th century affectation, and were virtually unknown in the early 1500s when Donald of Loch Alsh, the last of his line, went tits up without an heir male to succeed him.

Of course, the choice is yours.

[The Wizard of BC]

If I may quote from "The Scottish Register of Tartan".

http://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/guidance.aspx

Tartan name

• Each tartan submitted for registration in the Register must be named and the nature of the applicant's association with the name explained (Scottish Register of Tartans Act 2008, section 6(7)(d)).
• The name chosen must be unique to the Register, i.e. it must differ from the names of all tartans already recorded (Scottish Register of Tartans Act 2008, section 6(8)).
• It must be no more than 200 characters in length.
• The nature of the applicant's association with the chosen tartan name refers to his/her 'relationship to, connection with or interest in the name' (Scottish Register of Tartans Act 2008, section 6(12)(b)). An applicant must therefore explain fully why the name has been chosen.
• The proposed name for a tartan must not give the impression that the tartan has been approved or officially adopted by any clan/family, corporation, military regiment, district or place unless such authority can be demonstrated.
• Applicants are advised to avoid using the preposition 'of' in their tartan name unless they can demonstrate a legal right of ownership of the lands so described, as recognised by the Court of the Lord Lyon.
• Applicants should only use titles which are recognised by the Court of the Lord Lyon.

Types of names:

Scottish Clan/Family names -
A tartan to be worn by a particular Scottish clan or family.
The applicant must be the head or chief of the family or clan, or have the written authority of the head or chief. Where there is no chief or head, the authority of the Clan Society will be acceptable to register a Clan Society tartan.
Applications to register Clan/Family tartans will be submitted to the Court of the Lord Lyon for checking.

Name
A tartan for anyone of that surname to wear.
The applicant will be expected to have the backing of a substantial number of people who bear that name, eg. the backing of a Name Society, as evidence that those who share that surname like and approve of the tartan to be registered on their behalf.

Personal Name
A tartan designed by an individual but available for anyone sharing that name to wear.
The name of the tartan must be qualified by the addition of a given name and a geographical location. The rationale should include detail on whether the owner is happy for others sharing the same surname to wear the tartan.

District and place names
A tartan associated with a particular geographical area, including towns, parishes, counties or countries.
Where a tartan is named after a country, a state, a district, a town or a city, giving the impression of an association with any local or central authority, public or private initiative, the application must be accompanied by a letter of authority from a prominent office-bearer in the appropriate body.
If there is no such appropriate authority then the applicant will be expected to confirm that fact in writing.

Corporate and group names
A tartan for a company, an organisation or an informal group of individuals.
Where a tartan is named for a formal company or organisation, giving the impression of an association with it, by use of the official title or commonly used nickname, then the application must be accompanied by a letter of authority from a prominent office-bearer in the appropriate body e.g. the Chief Executive.
An informal group of individuals will be expected to provide background information on the group, its nature and its approval of the tartan.

Military names
A tartan associated with any branch of the armed forces, including volunteer regiments.
The applicant will be expected to submit evidence that the tartan has been endorsed by the Commanding Officer (or equivalent) of the regiment concerned.

Royal names
A tartan with a direct Royal connection
The applicant must submit written authority of a senior official from within the relevant royal household.

Commemorative names
A tartan designed to commemorate a particular person or event.
If a commemorative tartan name gives the impression that it has 'official' approval, then evidence of authority to use that name will be requested.

Artefact names
A tartan copied from an artefact or painting
If the threadcount for a tartan has been taken from an existing artefact or painting, historical or modern, the name should record its origin.

Fashion or fancy names
A 'fancy' tartan for the fashion trade
Generally the names proposed for fashion tartans will have little or no meaning.

[MizzouScotsman]

It's never going to be a "money maker" and I doubt any mill will carry it as a stock tartan. That being said, if it means something TO YOU, then go ahead and design and register it! It's not a cheap process... the registration is roughly $125 and the kilt will likely be $800 (ish) for a custom woven 8 yarder, but your tartan will be added to the register and you can call it your own, as can other MacDonalds of Lochalsh.



Not in my opinion. This type of thing is done all the time. Look at how many tartans are based on the Black Watch tartan... MacKenzie, Robertson Hunting, Campbell, Gordon, etc.

That being said, have you thought about designing a tartan using the COLORS from the MacDonald Sleat tartan, but based on the DESIGN of the Ross Hunting tartan? This way, it honors both.



Would it be a nice idea? Sure! However, if history has taught us anything (see thread on the restricted Green Stewart tartan and asking permission from the Queen to wear it), when you ask a question, remember that you MAY NOT like the answer. As a wise attorney once said, never ask a witness a question that you don't already know the answer to.

The question becomes, what would you think / do / say if the Chief of MacDonald of Sleat answered you with a resounding "no, it's not OK"? It would be great to have 'official approval', but he make take exception to the fact that you're a sept who wants to represent themselves in their own right ('splintering off' as it were) in a tartan design.




I looked through the Tartan Register and found a MacDonald of Lochmaddy, but none of Lochalsh.

http://tartanregister.gov.uk/qresult...cdonald&Page=1

That's just my $.02... well 4 questions may be $.08.

Rocky, you're the best! That information is great and you don't know how much I appreciate it. IF, and it's a big IF, I get this done, would you build my kilt with this new tartan? Of the 5 kilts I possess, you've made 4 of them (by the way, I'm going to be ordering a couple more from you in the coming months)...lol....and I don't see any reason to discontinue that trend.

[MizzouScotsman]

Scottish Clan/Family names -
A tartan to be worn by a particular Scottish clan or family.
The applicant must be the head or chief of the family or clan, or have the written authority of the head or chief. Where there is no chief or head, the authority of the Clan Society will be acceptable to register a Clan Society tartan.
Applications to register Clan/Family tartans will be submitted to the Court of the Lord Lyon for checking.
.

That's the sticky point. Since there is no Chief of MacDonald of Lochalsh, that would mean that I need to get the authority from the Clan Society...wonder if that would mean something like Clan Donald USA? That is a Clan Society isn't it?