Seaforth Doublet - circa 1910 NEED HELP

[FosterMacMillan]

Hi Xmarkers!

I need your help with informations about Seaforth Doublet from 1910 (circa). I try to find some pictures of collar badges, etc., colour placement, however, there are very few picture I found... If anybody have more, please, help me and upload them here please!

Thank you very much for help!

[figheadair]

Have you tired the Highlanders (Queen's Own Highlanders) museum?

[FosterMacMillan]

Have you tired the Highlanders (Queen's Own Highlanders) museum?

I know this page, however they do not respond to my mails when I try. I need close-ups of the doublet.
But thank you for reply!

[OC Richard]

Scarlet doublet, white piping, buff collar and cuffs. From the time doublets were introduced in 1855 to around 1900 the epaulettes were scarlet without piping, but around 1900 the epaulettes were changed to buff (still without piping).

The Seaforth Highlanders were unusual in that at the time of the 1881 reforms they decided to keep the collar badges of both parent regiments, the 72nd and the 78th. So, they wore two sets of collar badges. Here they are



In 1914 Full Dress was withdrawn from service.

Here is an ORs' Seaforth Highlanders doublet



and an Officer's doublet with the arrangement of the collar badges quite evident; note the silver trim, which usually indicates a Volunteer or Territorial Battalion



This is an oft-reproduced photo, c1890, of a Seaforth Highlander with all his kit ready for inspection. You can clearly see the placement of the collar badges. Note that he has two doublets, one below and one up on a shelf, and three pairs of spats.



Here are some doublet photos, not Seaforth, but the Argylls of Canada, showing the elegant tailoring typical in the late 19th and early 20th centuries





And a doublet of the Royal Highlanders of Canada again showing the lovely classic shapes of flaps and cuffs



Note the flaps differ right and left, so that they angle inwards toward the centre back; too often modern doubletmakers have the flaps all the same.



Note the white piping being 'let' into a seam




When the doublet was introduced in 1855 it was doublebreasted with square buttons and with slash cuffs. Within a year it was singlebreasted with round buttons

[FosterMacMillan]

Thank you for information you posted here, very helpfull for me! I want to sew it for me, co close-ups are needed, once again thank you!

[OC Richard]

This thread I started (on another forum) shows the right way and the wrong way to make doublets...

http://forums.bobdunsire.com/forums/...ghlight=mutant

[FosterMacMillan]

This thread I started (on another forum) shows the right way and the wrong way to make doublets...

http://forums.bobdunsire.com/forums/...ghlight=mutant

And once again another question! Did anybody knows where I can buy collar badges for Seaforths (circa 1910) and replica of cross-belt buckle? Originals are behind my financial borders... Thank you...

[OC Richard]

About the collar badges, I don't know of anybody who makes replicas. Original come up on Ebay from time to time and people bid them up, usually.

About the crossbelt hardware, do you mean for a piper?

This can get tricky because 1) each battalion might have different hardware and 2) the Pipe Major probably wears different hardware than the rest of the pipers.

It would be a matter of locating all the best photos you can of which battalion you're going for, at as close to the right time period as possible.

Some regiments were very consistent, for example the Cameron Highlanders wore the same crossbelt hardware from the 1840s up until now (The Highlanders of the RRS) in all the battalions I've seen both Scottish and Canadian.

Other regiments are difficult to pin down. I have quite a few pics of Gordon Highlanders pipers showing differing crossbelt hardware; they seem to have worn several different styles over the years, so it would be a matter of picking a precise year and copying perhaps a single pic from that year.

I do know that the Seaforth Highlanders maintained rather different uniforms for the pipers of the two battalions post-1881.

From The Queens Own Highlanders book:

"After the formation of the Seaforth Highlanders in 1881 the dress of the pipers of the two battalions was similar in most respects. Both wore kilts and plaids of MacKenzie tartan, MacKenzie garter knots, black brogues, and blue Glengarries with blackcock feathers. MacKenzie hosetops with white spats were worn on parade and MacKenzie hose with buckled brogues when on duty in the Officers' Mess and on other similar occasions. In both battalions the Pipe Major and Pipe Sergeant wore their red sashes over the left shoulder.

But whereas the ornaments used by the 1st battalion were silver those of the 2nd battalion were brass.

The main difference between the battalions was that the sporran used by the 1st battalion was white hair with two black tassels and a silver top, the 2nd battalion sporran was brown/grey hair with two black tassels and a brass top.

On the crossbelt the 1st battalion wore the Duke of Albany's Star, plain white-metal buckle, slide, and tip with a stag's head, while the 2nd battalion pipers had (cross) belts with the Elephant superscribed Assaye, brass buckle, slide, and tip with a stag's head."

One interesting thing is that the Pipe Major of the 2nd battalion wore an officers' sword belt plate on his crossbelt, above the buckle. I believe that to be unique.

Here's the Pipe Major 1st battalion Seaforth Highlanders; you can see the very ornate crossbelt and waistbelt hardware worn only by the Pipe Major. This hardware continued to be worn by the Pipe Major of the Queens Own Highlanders post-1960.



Another 1st battalion Pipe Major. You have to be careful about these old coloured postcards; the colouring is often wrong. One postcard has the Pipe Major of the Black Watch's doublet coloured red! Unfortunately this error has been perpetuated in books about the Black Watch.



And here's a piper of the 1st battalion probably about the time period you want. You can quite clearly see the waistbelt and crossbelt hardware are fabricated out of plain sheet metal (probably 'white metal' or what was called German Silver) with stag's head badges affixed. You can see the Duke of Albany's Star on the crossbelt above the buckle. Note that the sporran cantle has a badge and in addition there's thistle engraving on the sheet metal cantle itself on either side of the badge. Of particular interest is the rear pipe ribbon of Prince Charles Edward Stuart tartan; this was the tartan of the old 72nd Highlanders. This rear ribbon in PCES tartan continued to be worn by the pipers of The Queens Own Highlanders post-1960. Note that he's not wearing the Full Dress doublet but rather the Service Dress jacket with rounded bottom. It would have also been in Archer Green.



Now for the pipers of the 2nd battalion. This postcard is a fairly good representation; you can see the brass hardware and the Assaye Elephant badge on the crossbelt, and the brown/grey hair sporran with brass top. Note the elaborate tip to the crossbelt hardware. I'd like to see a closeup photo of that! Note that the pipers of both battalions wear the same curious shells, with a zigzag of 1/2" lace in the centre flanked by two zigzags of either piping or 1/8" soutache braid.

[FosterMacMillan]

About the collar badges, I don't know of anybody who makes replicas. Original come up on Ebay from time to time and people bid them up, usually.

Many thanks for your outstanding reply! And I apologize for that I don´t wrote which batallion I want. I want 1st Batallion, in corporal´s or sergeant´s rank, not a piper. I found very good detail of sword belt buckle, however, 350 pounds was too much for me however it is original buckle.

So 1st battalion got silver (plain metal) badges and buckles, buttons were silver too? Collar badges, uhmm, I found some informations few years ago that there were replica makers who made them for 30-40 pounds but I haven´t no more info about them. It looks like a problem in future...

I found correct fabrics for doublet, lacing and bordering in white. I have an idea how to make a buttons (via. casting) but it is out of my capacity and technology to make collar badges...looks like I need to save some money.

The color of sabre belt was black also for soldiers? I got some pictures with white leather belts.

[OC Richard]

In the Highland battalions only officers would wear sword belts, I believe. (Excepting the crossbelts of the pipers.) These would have a 'sword belt plate' which is a rectangle with various badges on it, varying from regiment to regiment. Officers' sword belts were white. Your corporal or sergeant would look more or less like the 'bandsman' in the postcard above, except with a fly plaid rather than the full plaid.

Finding just the right 'buff' colour for the collar, cuffs, and (later) the epaulettes would be tricky, I would think.

About the metal colours, the things I posted above probably affected only the pipers.

For the non-pipers, that is, the ordinary Other Ranks solidiers of The Seaforth Highlanders, what I've seen is:

White metal (German Silver): cap badge, collar badges, sporran badge
Brass: belt buckle, rim of sporran cantle and cones to sporran tassels, buttons

Remember the general rule was that Regular battalions wore brass buttons, buckles, and sporran hardware, and officers had gold lace (braid) on their doublets, but in Territorial battalions these things were White Metal or silver. The pipers of the 2nd battalion Seaforth Highlanders appear to be an odd exception to this general rule.