Irish kilt pics, 1905

[Moosehead]

Thought I'd put these up. They were sent in regards my statement that the current saffron colour for kilts was created by the Irish Regiments in the British Army. I still may be right .

These are 2 kilts held in a museum in Ireland, both being "saffron", circa 1905, from St. Enda's Scool. No, I'm not gonna get into whether or not the irish kilt is "old" (although 125-150 years seems old to me), or anything like that. Just thought you gents might be interested.

First pic shows the 2 kilts in question. See if you can spot something "strange" about them.

The second pic shows an under-apron pocket, which was standard on these kilts. I have another, but won't post it, but shows they were machine sewn.

[michael steinrok]

Wasn't St Ednas a school for boys? And did not Padraig Pearse teach there?
This may change my feelings about the saffron kilt. What were they doing there? Thank you for posting this

[Bob C]

Wasn't St Ednas a school for boys? And did not Padraig Pearse teach there?
This may change my feelings about the saffron kilt. What were they doing there? Thank you for posting this

That was, indeed, the school at which Pease taught. I read that the kilts were his idea, part of an effort to instill Gaelic identity, and that the students who wore them were teased mecilessly.

[Big Paul]

Are those pockets?

[NewKilt]

On the kilt that is still folded over it looks like there is a button at the top of the apron. Is this correct?

Darrell

[michael steinrok]

So do these kilts predate the Royal Irish Regiments wearing their kilts?

[Moosehead]

Michael,

yes, St. Enda's was Pierce's school for boys. These kilts were part of the uniform of the day, though not strictly required. And yes, those who wore them were teased pretty bad, but only by those students who were "Anglicized".

Do they pre-date the Royal Irish? Absolutely, seeing as the RIR were only brought into being in 1992-'93. Do they pre-date the wearing of this particular saffron colour by the predecesors of the RIR? That is the question I'm currently looking into. Is this the "traditional" saffron colour of 500 years ago? No, all evidence points to a brighter, or mustardy yellow colour.

Apparently, the dye used was "cottle", although I haven't a clue what that is.

And, yes, they do have buttons, presumably for braces (suspenders). That, however, is not the magic answer.

Quick edit: just found that the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers (who became part of the Royal Irish Rangers in 1968, and thence part of the Royal Irish Regiment in 1993) did not have a Pipe Band, therefore no kilts, prior to 1910. Still checking as to whether the Royal Ulster Rifles and The Royal Irish Fusiliers (who also became Rangers, then part of the RIR) had Pipes prior to 1905. I can say that the Irish Guards did not.

I may have to admit defeat here. It could very well be that the Regiments took the colour from kilts extant in Ireland at the time.

[michael steinrok]

Oh I wouldn't say it was a defeat. Besides I may finally knuckle under and buy one of the bloody things I appreciate your effort.Thanks again.

[Moosehead]

And, I can confirm that the London Irish Rifles did not have a Band until 1906.

Knuckle under Michael, PM me.

I've been the same way, never liked the look because I made the apparent mistake that they were not of truly "Irish" creation. Not sure it would matter, considering the history of the Regiments even prior to them becoming British Regiments.

Guess the mrs. is right, I hate admitting I'm wrong. But...there it is.

[macwilkin]

So do these kilts predate the Royal Irish Regiments wearing their kilts?

Good question. The London Irish Regiment's web site has this to say about saffron kilts for pipers:

When infantry regiments associated with the Irish Free State were disbanded, the War Office decided to approve Irish distinction for the serving regiments, including the approval for pipers to wear saffron kilts and caubeens.

-- http://www.londonirishrifles.com/caubeen.cfm

According to this then, saffron kilts were not approved until after 1922, when the Irish Free State came into being, although in R.G. Harris's "The Irish Regiments 1638-1999", there is a picture (taken in 1919) of HRH Edward, Prince of Wales, presenting Piper J. Fagan, D Coy., 2nd Battalion, Leinster Regiment with his 1914 Star. Fagan is wearing what appears to be a saffron kilt, although the photo is dark. There is also a famous recruiting poster from WWI that shows an Irish piper in full kit, including a saffron kilt.

Other references in Harris:

*pipers were officially added to the Irish Guards in 1916. (103)

*In 1904, a photograph of a full dress parade of the 2nd Battalion, Royal Irish Regiment shows pipers, but they are clad the same as the band, "without any apparent distinguishing dress features". (116)

*The Royal Iniskilling Fusiliers apparently had pipers in 1910, but they were apparently not wearing kilts.

One interesting point comes on page 137, where the Dress Regulations of 1927 discuss a uniform for the Iniskilling's piper. The regs specifically mention "ancient Gaelic costumes" and a "saffron kilt".

So, the majority of references seem to point to the First World War or after as when pipers in the Irish regiments adopted the kilt.

I also have a photo of the Headquarters Company, Cork Brigade, Irish Volunteers in 1915, and there is a gentleman that is wearing a kilt with very "Scottish" accoutrements; ie kilt jacket, bonnet, etc. In addition to Pearse, several Irish Nationalist leaders, such as The O'Rahilly, Thomas Ashe and Eamon Ceannt wore kilts. The latter, if I remember correctly, wore one when he played the uillean pipes for the Pope.

One thing that should be pointed out, though: both Pearse and his Nationalists, as well as the Irish Regiments of the British Army were attempting to create "ancient Gaelic costumes" with no real documentation of the Irish wearing the kilt. The Irish regiments borrowed heavily from the Scots in terms of kit, with modifications to create a more "Irish" appearance.

Matt Newsome wrote a very excellent article on his blog about this; alas, I can't find it right now -- Matt, help!

Cheers,

Todd