clan sept

[vespa]

Hi I'm posting here cause I don't know where else to post it.

I was wondering if anyone could tell me what exactly is a clan sept? I have tried to find info on the internet, but I'm still not quite clear on what it means. If I have a name that is listed in the septs of a clan, does it mean that our descendants worked for (were employed by) that chief, were they for lack of a better term "subjects", relations or did they just happen to live in the region governed by the chief?

Thanx

[Monkey@Arms]

Try this:

http://www.electricscotland.com/webc...lies_septs.htm

Best regards,

Jake

[Lallans]

I can offer mine! In usage, I've always taken it to mean a family that is (or was) allied to a Scottish clan, generally through marriage or perhaps through an old time mutual defense/aggression pact. I also understand that the 'sept' status is particular to a given family in a particular area is and not to everyone in the world with the same name. Now I await the wrath of my betters! (O_O);

[vespa]

Thanks Jake, that was most helpful.

Mark

[macwilkin]

From the web site of the Lyon Court:

Who is a member of a clan?

Every person who has the same surname as the chief is deemed to be a member of the clan. Equally a person who offers allegiance to the chief is recognised as a member of the clan unless the chief decides that he will not accept that person's allegiance.

There is no official list of recognised septs. This is a matter for each chief to determine. But where a particular sept has traditionally been associated with a particular clan it would not be appropriate for that name to be treated by another clan chief as one of its septs.


-- http://www.lyon-court.com/lordlyon/240.html

Regards,

Todd

[Scotus]

In our Clan Cumming Society, USA, we don't really use the term "sept" much. We usually say something along the lines of, "names traditionally associated with Clan Cumming." Yes, I know it's much longer to say , but it's a little more accurate.

[Sketraw]

Ah Sept...a Victorian invention, but no doubt here to stay, the Sept lists made up by the historian William Forbes Skene in his book of 1837 neatly and in true Victorian romanticism of the time, neatly divides up names that may have had a connection to a clan. It certainly doesn't mean all of that particular name by any stretch of the imagination and clans did, or should I say, Clan Societies made the most of the sept list created by him to bolster their membership numbers.

It would be worth reading the short article I created for a bit more detail, it will also demonstrate why Lyon Court does not have any official 'sept' list

http://www.clan-duncan.co.uk/clan-septs.html

[O'Callaghan]

Just to muddy the waters (LOL!), Irish clans themselves are often referred to as septs, and the tribes they belong to are then sometimes referred to as clans. For example, the Dalcassian tribe, aka the Dal gCas in Gaelic, currently refer to themselves as 'Clan gCas', and refer to the recognised surnames within the Dal gCas as septs, e.g. Kennedy, to take a prominent example.

The above terminology is far from universally applied, though. I consider myself to be a member of the O'Callaghan clan, which is part of the Eugenian tribe, aka the Eoganacht. I have never heard the Eugenians described as a clan, always as a tribe.

I prefer to at least always call a tribe a tribe, because, whereas each Irish sept can be pigeon holed into one of a few tribes (there are five major ones, I think) the Scottish clans are essentially all members of a single Irish tribe, the Dal Riada, aka the Scots. It has been pointed out to me, though, that Scottish clans and Irish clans that have the same name or a homonym of the same name are separate clans.

ETA: Some Scottish clans are of Pict or Norse origin, however.