Clan badges vs family crests??

[longshadows]

In heraldry, especially heraldry in the British Isles, coats-of-arms belong to an individual, not everyone bearing the same surname. ...but what you want is the badge of a clansmen/women

Todd

Todd, I think your expertise on this topic would be very helpful to all of us. Can you elaborte a bit of this point? You say "coats-of-arms belong to an individual, not everyone bearing the same surname," but you go on to say "what you want is the badge of a clansman." I'm not sure I understand the difference.

So, are you saying that there is not such thing as a "family" coat-of-arms and that each individual must establish his/her own c-o-a?

Thank you for helping me/us with this matter.

Regards,

[Moosehead]

So, are you saying that there is not such thing as a "family" coat-of-arms and that each individual must establish his/her own c-o-a?

You got it in one. There is NO SUCH THING AS A FAMILY COAT OF ARMS, OR FAMILY CREST. Arms are granted to individuals (or institutions, corporate bodies). Family members in direct descent from the Arms bearer may use them with slight difference(called cadences), but again, only with the permission of the Arms bearer.

The badge of a clansman represents the Crest of the Chief, who is armigerous (meaning has a personal Coat of Arms). The "crest" is the top portion of the Arms, above the helm (helmet). And it is only by the Chief's permission, that this may be worn.

If you look at my avatar, that is the crest of the O'Brien Clan, used by all members of the Clan, with the permission of The O'Brien, Lord Inchiquin.

[Mike1]

Here you go, Todd, one that is right down your alley.

Can I suggest that you splinter your Q & A's off into a separate thread, so that people can easily locate the information you have to share?

I'm also going to move this one from General Kilt Talk to Off Topic.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by cajunscot
In heraldry, especially heraldry in the British Isles, coats-of-arms belong to an individual, not everyone bearing the same surname. ...but what you want is the badge of a clansmen/women

Todd

Todd, I knew that so-called coats of arms are being sold by various dealers but where did they come up with the name "bucket shop." (I can imagine someone trying to sell an unsuspecting person a bucket of slop )
Thanks for the information, I think we need more of this kind of thing to keep members and guests informed about the unscrupulous sods out there after our hard earned money.

[macwilkin]

You got it in one. There is NO SUCH THING AS A FAMILY COAT OF ARMS, OR FAMILY CREST. Arms are granted to individuals (or institutions, corporate bodies). Family members in direct descent from the Arms bearer may use them with slight difference(called cadences), but again, only with the permission of the Arms bearer.

The badge of a clansman represents the Crest of the Chief, who is armigerous (meaning has a personal Coat of Arms). The "crest" is the top portion of the Arms, above the helm (helmet). And it is only by the Chief's permission, that this may be worn.

If you look at my avatar, that is the crest of the O'Brien Clan, used by all members of the Clan, with the permission of The O'Brien, Lord Inchiquin.

A "tip o' the bonnet" tae Moosehead...he hit the nail on the head with this post.

I would refer anyone interested in Scottish heraldry to an article by our Matt Newsome as a nice introduction to the subject:

http://www.albanach.org/scotheraldry.html

As far as the term "bucket shop" goes, Merriam-Webster's online dictionary defines it as:

1 : a saloon in which liquor was formerly sold from or dispensed in open containers (as buckets or pitchers)

2 a : a gambling establishment that formerly used market fluctuations (as in securities or commodities) as a basis for gaming b : a dishonest brokerage firm; especially : one that formerly failed to execute customers' margin orders in expectation of making a profit from market fluctuations adverse to the customers' interests

To answer Longshadow's question, a "clansman's badge" is different from the coat-of-arms. The badge is the Chief's crest, surrounded by a "buckle-and-strap", with the motto or slogan of the clan/family on the strap, all as Moosehead described. The badge marked the wearer as a loyal supporter of the Chief and member of the clan. Non-armigers (people without armorial bearings) may wear the clansman's badge to signify their clan affiliation.

Now, let me just say here: I'm not suggesting that someone who has purchased a "family crest" from a "bucket shop" is committing some sort of crime, because there is no heraldic authority equivalent in the United States like the Lyon Court in Scotland that can legally enforce laws pertaining to heraldry. As far as I'm concerned, people can display whatever they want in their homes, but I do want to let folks know about the "gentle science" of heraldry.

Regards,

Todd

[macwilkin]

Moved thread to new Heraldry sub-forum in Kilt Accessories.

TJW

[Sir Robert]

Now me I'm going to assume a Coat of Arms for myself. I mean why not? When 98% of all CoA are self-assumed anyway right? Oh don't say a word about some has-been noble having to grant you your arms, for Christ's sake the Beatles were knighted for paying taxes.

Now as the Armitiger, I say that this is "Family Arms" available to all who are in my family. I know what you are saying, "You can't do that." But I just did. The Lord Lyon be damned. As the second son of a baron my brother Jerry gets Dad's CoA but I can use a variation of it.

The British Royal Family each has their' own CoA but as ERII dies, hers could go to Prince Charles and so on to Prince William. But the Royal Family as a whole use the Quartered Richard's three lions & Louis' Flur de lis. So there is such a thing as a family CoA.

Officially "Arms" belong to one man and gets passed down to his first born son. (Prima Gentry) Often however you find "Arms" used as a "Device." The perfect example is the Scottish clan badge.

[macwilkin]

Now me I'm going to assume a Coat of Arms for myself. I mean why not? When 98% of all CoA are self-assumed anyway right? Oh don't say a word about some has-been noble having to grant you your arms, for **edit** sake the Beatles were knighted for paying taxes.

Yes, but Paul McCartney's arms were granted through the College of Arms, which is the offical heraldic authority for England.

And I think your figure of 98% of arms being assumed is a wee bit high. Maybe in the United States, but certainly not in countries where there is a heraldic authority to grant them, and it is illegal to bear assumed arms.

Now as the Armitiger, I say that this is "Family Arms" available to all who are in my family. I know what you are saying, "You can't do that." But I just did. The Lord Lyon be damned. As the second son of a baron my brother Jerry gets Dad's CoA but I can use a variation of it.

Depends, really. In the USA, since there is no Heraldic authority, then yes, you can do what ever you want with your arms. But don't knock the Lord Lyon just because the rules of Scottish heraldry disagree with what you want to do. If you're not planning on going through Scotland for your arms, then don't worry about the Lord Lyon says. Heraldry on the Continent tends to be more "liberal" anyway in regards to the "rules" than UK Heraldry, and especially Scottish Heraldry.

In the USA, as I've mentioned earlier, there is no heraldic authority, so most heraldic experts now tend to agree that Americans may assume arms, although many choose to either seek grants of arms (via an ancestor) from one of the heraldic authorities in the British Isles, or to register their arms through the American College of Heraldry (unofficial) or a foreign source, like the Russian College of Heraldry (again, unofficial), South Africa or the Spanish Cronistas Reyes de Armas (Royal Heralds).

The British Royal Family each has their' own CoA but as ERII dies, hers could go to Prince Charles and so on to Prince William. But the Royal Family as a whole use the Quartered Richard's three lions & Louis' Flur de lis. So there is such a thing as a family CoA.

Again, yes and no. Remember that arms passed from generation to another (royal or no) have some sort of "mark of difference" to distinguish that has been passed down, so technically, it is not the same (family) CoA being passed down. In Scotland this is usually done through the "border" of the arms, whilst in England it is done through cadency marks.

A quote from an article on the Scottish Heraldry Society's web site is appropriate here:

According to the Scottish laws of heraldry, a younger son has no right to his father’s arms but must petition to matriculate from those of his father his own arms, which will be differenced from his father’s.
-- http://heraldry-scotland.co.uk/beginners.html

Officially "Arms" belong to one man and gets passed down to his first born son. (Prima Gentry) Often however you find "Arms" used as a "Device." The perfect example is the Scottish clan badge.

The so-called "clan badge" is actually the "Chief's Crest Badge", which is worn by members of the clan to display their loyalty to the Chief and the Clan. It is not the arms of the clan, just the crest of the Chief's arms, which is used as the badge. Some Chiefs have registered arms for their clan's society, such as the Campbells, but the arms belong to the chief, and his clansmen and clanswomen wear his/her badge.

Bottom line: if you want to "assume" arms, then go ahead. Many people do, especially in the United States. I would much rather see someone take the time and trouble to assume their own arms, rather than just depend on a "bucket shop" to provide them with one. In designing those arms, the person will most likely learn the customs and traditions of heraldry, which is always a good thing.

Regards,

Todd

[Sketraw]

The so-called "clan badge" is actually the "Chief's Crest Badge", which is worn by members of the clan to display their loyalty to the Chief and the Clan. It is not the arms of the clan, just the crest of the Chief's arms, which is used as the badge. Some Chiefs have registered arms for their clan's society, such as the Campbells, but the arms belong to the chief, and his clansmen and clanswomen wear his/her badge.

A wee correction Todd the 'Chiefs Crest Badge' is in a plain circle (usually accompanied by three feathers) The Clans folk's Badge is the 'Chiefs Crest' in a 'Strap and Buckle' to show allegiance to that chief. Even his heir apparent and all other siblings have to wear the 'crest' in a 'Strap & Buckle'

By Scots Heraldic law and Custom only the Chief/Armiger can use/wear 'his crest' outwith a circle all others should display the crest in a 'Strap & Buckle'

[SFCRick]

thanks for the lesson