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    Irish Kilts

    Hi - for those of us who are of irish or mixed irish/scottish descent,(such as myself), and who support the "irish" kilt, I want to pass on a bit of news from "Irish Kilt Society Newsletter Volume 6 No 2 ~ Christmas 2009". The Society has a new permenant home at Charleville Castle, Tullamore , Co. Offaly. If you are interested in the Society you should soon be able to find links to the society's news letters and other interesting info at http://charlevillecastle.ie/

    Of course, if the societyisn't for you, the info on the castle you will find by clicking the link might be of passing historical interest.

    Slainte a charide

    Tim

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    I belong to their Yahoo group, but it's pretty quiet.

    I must say it gives me pause that the castle was built to commemorate the defeat of the 1798 rebellion.

    This was started by the United Irishmen, lead by Napper Tandy and Wolfe Tone, who were actually protestants, but came from Dublin, although the majority of the rank and file were catholics. You have to understand that catholics were barred from owning land or being a member of a learned profession, and then it makes sense.

    They relied upon France to supply troops to help them, but AFAIK all the French did was hand out green cockades for the rebels to wear in their hats and commission the leaders as officers in the French army, so it's no wonder it failed. Sort of emblematic of French military history.

    At least the castle flies the Irish tricolour in the picture, but then it is in the Republic, so those who built it ultimately lost their cause in the long run.

    I am English, but have Irish blood, and from all the way South in County Cork, where the Callaghan name comes from. To be clear, I don't agree with the Northern Loyalists, but I think if the Republic were to take over the North they would get more than they bargained for, i.e. lots of new people who regard themselves as different, who don't necessarily think of themselves as Irish atall. Not to mention that a lost cat would be headline news in the Republic, whereas the North has considerable crime.

    I apologise for the politics, but if you follow the link there is a serious political slant on the castle website.

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    Could you please point out the "serious political slant" on the Charleville Castle web site? Seems like a very straight forward recounting of the history of the building, if you ask me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by O'Callaghan View Post
    snip...


    I apologise for the politics, but if you follow the link there is a serious political slant on the castle website.
    Quote Originally Posted by MacMillan of Rathdown View Post
    Could you please point out the "serious political slant" on the Charleville Castle web site? Seems like a very straight forward recounting of the history of the building, if you ask me.
    All, we here at XMarks just LOVE history. I'm a huge history buff (not nearly the expert that a lot of our members are however) - a lot which interest has been generated by my years on XMarks.

    All I'm saying is that lets keep this in an historical perspective and not bring any modern day conflicts into this one.

    Nothing is wrong in this thread but let's keep it that way.
    Dee

    Ferret ad astra virtus

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMillan of Rathdown View Post
    Could you please point out the "serious political slant" on the Charleville Castle web site? Seems like a very straight forward recounting of the history of the building, if you ask me.
    "It owes its "Tin Soldier Fortress" look to the celebration of victory over the third French revolutionary expedition to Ireland - the first decisive victory by Britain over the revolutionary republican movement, which was sweeping across the monarchies and their colonies at that time."

    Just referring to it as a victory is taking a position.

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    Quote Originally Posted by O'Callaghan View Post
    "It owes its "Tin Soldier Fortress" look to the celebration of victory over the third French revolutionary expedition to Ireland - the first decisive victory by Britain over the revolutionary republican movement, which was sweeping across the monarchies and their colonies at that time."

    Just referring to it as a victory is taking a position.
    No, that's not taking a political position, it's called placing the style of the architecture in it's historical context, and it is done by architectural historians all the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMillan of Rathdown View Post
    No, that's not taking a political position, it's called placing the style of the architecture in it's historical context, and it is done by architectural historians all the time.
    So you would have me believe that you can't in any way tell if it were written by a loyalist or a republican? I can. More to the point, is there not any neutral way in which it could have been written? This was clearly not attempted.

    The most remarkable thing is that the history was written from a loyalist perspective when it is located in the Republic! This is easily explicable, though, as it is written from the perspective of the family that owned it. You would think that they might want to be more diplomatic, though, otherwise the tricolour flying outside won't fool anyone.

    Of course architectural historians do this sort of thing all the time. They are probably just as biassed as everyone else, too, LOL!

    No point dragging this on much further. We both know where we stand.

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    As an educator, I always tell my students to question EVERYTHING! I don't care what anyone says, just because they say they're an authority, and because it's written down. Hog wash! Just because something is in a book, or on a web site, or whatever, does not make it the gospel truth. Maybe, but, again, one needs to question; look at all the facts; and then draw your own conclusion.

    One man's view of history can be totally different from another man's, especially if one is on the losing end. Just look at how history in England is taught...from their perspective, as the concurring nation. The Scots and Irish sure don't agree. Ireland sure has a different take on their history as compared to England. But, hey, it's written! Even American history, during WW II, is different from what is taught in Japan. Our view vs. their view.

    I don't care what anyone says, the origin of the kilt is still up for grabs. I think we can all agree on the fact that the Scots popularized the kilt, but many factions went into it....Celtic, Norse, etc. Do some fact checking, and then QUESTION. As I stated in my other post, you'll believe what you want to believe.

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    With all due respect-- for history

    Quote Originally Posted by O'Callaghan View Post
    So you would have me believe that you can't in any way tell if it were written by a loyalist or a republican? I can. More to the point, is there not any neutral way in which it could have been written? This was clearly not attempted.

    The most remarkable thing is that the history was written from a loyalist perspective when it is located in the Republic! This is easily explicable, though, as it is written from the perspective of the family that owned it. You would think that they might want to be more diplomatic, though, otherwise the tricolour flying outside won't fool anyone.
    You have said that you can tell by the way the history of Charleville Forest is presented on their website that it was written by a Loyalist (whatever that is). Actually Mr. O'Callaghan, the bumf on the website was written by a local who lives just down the road from Charleville Forest. Someone who was born and educated in the Republic, and who, like 99% of the people living in the Republic, has no axe to grind. It's our history, and we're comfortable with it, even if some folks from overseas, and who don't live here, aren't. The plain fact of the matter is that the Bury's (who have owned it since 1875 or thereabouts) haven't lived at Charleville Forest since long before the Hitler War; Michael McMullen (Irish, Catholic, and born in the Republic) leased it and restored it as his private residence back in the early 1970s. About ten years ago Michael became concerned about the increased costs of maintaining the place and, along with several locals, set up the trust which now maintains the building. Yes, they fly the Tricolour-- why shouldn't they? They're Irish, Charleville Forest is in Ireland, and there is no deception involved. Nor is there a hidden agenda, or some sort of crypto-West Brit plot hatching under the fan vaulted ceilings of the long gallery. No one is attempting to fool anyone.

    Now in the face of the facts, I don't see how, by any stretch of the imagination, one could say that the history of the property was written from a loyalist perspective-- unless of course one brought to the discussion a predisposition that would colour their opinion-- or, perhaps, is endowed with some sort of omniscient ability to ferret out closet "loyalists" in the heart of County Offaly by looking at their websites.


    Quote Originally Posted by O'Callaghan View Post
    We both know where we stand.
    I would say that is self-evident.

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    Ah well, I suppose it is nearly impossible to bring up anything irish without stiring up a political discussion.

    Sigh

    My intent was only to make it known that the Irish Kilt Society, which has been languishing, now has a permenant home base and may receive a bit of a boost because of it.

    sauimhneas

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