How does thread count work?

[ardchoille]

I'm hoping someone can shed some light on this.

I was recently studying thread counts due to wanting to design my own family tartan. I have several kilts and of those is an 11 ounce tank and a 13 ounce tank - both made by Loch Carron mills. In the MacGregor green and red tartan, there is a white stripe bordered by a black stripe. In the 11 ounce tank the white strip is 6 threads wide and the black stripes are 4 threads wide but in the 13 ounce tank the white stripe is 8 threads wide and the black stripes are the same (4 threads wide). I was under the impression that the thread count doesn't change regardless of the weight of the tartan. I thought the weight of the tartan is dictated by the thickness of the thread used to weave - thicker thread in 16 ounce than in 13 ounce. Was I wrong in this assumption?

Here is a picture of the two kilts - the 11 ounce on the left and the 13 ounce on the right:




I have an ebook of tartan thread counts (PDF) for hundreds of tartans and it states:

MACGREGOR
-----------------
A 24 green
8 red
8 green
2 black
4 white
2 black
8 green
8 red
24 green

B 64 red
-----------------
152 ends.

How does one decipher these numbers? How does thread count work? Does it vary with the weight of the tartan? If it varies with the weight of the tartan, which weight of tartan are these thread counts for?

[Mr. MacDougall]

My understanding is that the thread counts are actually about proportion, rather than strictly thread counts. So you'd use more threads in a tighter weave to get a sett of the same size than if you had a looser weave, or larger threads, which is what you see in lighter weight cloth.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Thread counts are somewhat subjective. They represent proprtion rather than specific numbers of threads. Different mills producing cloth of different weights, for different purposes, will want a larger or smaller sett. You can adjust the threadcount to acheive the desired size that you want. (For instance, you'd want a larger sett size for weaving a blanket than you would for cloth to be made into neck ties).

Usually this means multiplying or dividing the numbers evenly, to maintain the proper ratio. However, there is some leeway to this, as you have discovered. In your case, the white pivot line has been doubled, but the black guard lines bordering it have not.

So much of this is dependant upon the weaver's eye. It could have been that if the black lines were doubled, as well, they would have appeared too thick and bulky, so the more narrow count was preserved. In the end what matters is the overall appearance of the tartan.

No one is going to look at the two tartans you have pictured side by side and say, "Well, one is MacGregor, but I don't know what the other is!" No, they are both obviously the MacGregor tartan. On the other hand, if the weaver had changed the black count to "72" for instance, this would have greatly altered the look of the design, to the point where it would no longer be recognizable.

I have a MacGregor kilt myself, that is somewhere around 80 years old. I took a thread count from it once, just to see what it was. I compared it to the recorded MacGregor thread counts I had access to in the Scottish Tartans Society register, and discovered that this kilt matched none of them! However, it was unmistakably the MacGregor tartan, no questions about it.

When I place an order for a custom tartan weave, I often provide the mill with the thread count and then instructions such as "adjust as needed to give a sett between seven and nine inches." Sometimes, too, the weaver will adjest the thread count within the same cloth to allow the selvedge of the cloth to fall at a point in the tartan that is pleasing to the eye for kilting. So you sometimes will get a slightly different thread count in the center of the cloth than you will from the edges, even though visibly you'd never notice any difference just looking at the cloth.

So, the overall look and design is more important than the precise number of threads used. The threadcount is there to give some guidance to the weaver.

[ardchoille]

Thread counts are somewhat subjective. They represent proprtion rather than specific numbers of threads. Different mills producing cloth of different weights, for different purposes, will want a larger or smaller sett. You can adjust the threadcount to acheive the desired size that you want. (For instance, you'd want a larger sett size for weaving a blanket than you would for cloth to be made into neck ties).

Usually this means multiplying or dividing the numbers evenly, to maintain the proper ratio. However, there is some leeway to this, as you have discovered. In your case, the white pivot line has been doubled, but the black guard lines bordering it have not.

So much of this is dependant upon the weaver's eye. It could have been that if the black lines were doubled, as well, they would have appeared too thick and bulky, so the more narrow count was preserved. In the end what matters is the overall appearance of the tartan.

No one is going to look at the two tartans you have pictured side by side and say, "Well, one is MacGregor, but I don't know what the other is!" No, they are both obviously the MacGregor tartan. On the other hand, if the weaver had changed the black count to "72" for instance, this would have greatly altered the look of the design, to the point where it would no longer be recognizable.

I have a MacGregor kilt myself, that is somewhere around 80 years old. I took a thread count from it once, just to see what it was. I compared it to the recorded MacGregor thread counts I had access to in the Scottish Tartans Society register, and discovered that this kilt matched none of them! However, it was unmistakably the MacGregor tartan, no questions about it.

When I place an order for a custom tartan weave, I often provide the mill with the thread count and then instructions such as "adjust as needed to give a sett between seven and nine inches." Sometimes, too, the weaver will adjest the thread count within the same cloth to allow the selvedge of the cloth to fall at a point in the tartan that is pleasing to the eye for kilting. So you sometimes will get a slightly different thread count in the center of the cloth than you will from the edges, even though visibly you'd never notice any difference just looking at the cloth.

So, the overall look and design is more important than the precise number of threads used. The threadcount is there to give some guidance to the weaver.

I have woven canvas, denim and a few other materials by hand on a loom, but it's beginning to sound like weaving tartan is just as much an art form as making a kilt.

Wow, that is quite educational, thank you Mr. Newsome. You continue to teach me new things, I am so glad you are a member of these forums!

[sirdaniel1975]

I'm hoping someone can shed some light on this.

How does one decipher these numbers? How does thread count work? Does it vary with the weight of the tartan? If it varies with the weight of the tartan, which weight of tartan are these thread counts for?

I would put the threads in this order:

W 4, K 2, G 8; R 8, G 24, R 64

or

R 64, G 24, R 8; G 8, K 2, W 4

*This covers each thread count, and the pattern just repeats itself.
*You can practice reproducing the tartan at Interactive Weaver.

He He.. I learned form one of the best...MATT!