Prince Charlie Coatee

[JSFMACLJR]

I am not a big fan of the Prince Charlie coatee. The reasons I don't like them are to be found in the little book by MacKinnon of Dunakin, written in 1960. I'd like to quote them here, and see what sort of discussion ensues, although I can make a pretty good guess as to the general feeling amongst the rabble regarding this ubiquitous garment!

"For evening wear there are many styles. One of the most popular today is the Prince Charlie coatee, which, however, is rather like a tail-coat cut short behind, with a few silver buttons scattered about. Its popularity notwithstanding, it is spoiled by its "monkey-jacket" appearance in front, and it shows too much tartan. It is almost invariably worn with a bow tie and the general effect is Lowland rather than Highland. ...

I cannot help agreeing with the following passge from Clans, Septs & Regiments of the Scottish Highlands: --
"The tendency in recent years has been to keep abbreviating the doublet or coatee and waistcoat in nineteenth century 'mess dress' style, in order 'to show more tartan,' and disclosing the close-sewn parts around the waistline. The effect is (in my view) to unbalance the figure, making the upper part seem 'too small' and the kilt 'stiff looking.' One need only compare the effect with the older style of doublet and waistcoat to perceive that covering the 'tight belted' waist-portion of the kilt and allowing the tartan to appear when it commences to flow loosely, makes it catch the eye far better than the large area of 'motionless' tartan." "

Have at it!

[Kerr the Walker]

Incoming!

I personally dont' mind it. However, I don't "not mind" it enough to purchase one since the number of formal events that I attend are (in my mind) adequately covered by my argyle and waistcoat. I'll probably get married in one, but that's about it as for the foreseeable future.

This one will be fun to follow....

[Panache]

Sandford,

The Prince Charlie is certainly a more modern look than say the regimental doublet or montrose doublet. It is sleeker and simpler than all the other styles of formal jacket / doublet.

To me it is a bridge between the traditional highland formal look and a standard dinner jacket / tuxedo.

I think that they are quite handsome and have a worthy place in the wardrobe of a well dressed kilted gentleman.

The only thing I don't like about them is the way that they are often worn with a waist coat that is either too small or worn too high. There should never-EVER be seen a white expanse of one's dress shirt between the bottom of the waist coat and the top of one's kilt. It just looks terrible, as if the outfit wasn't fitted properly at all.

I am intrigued by the idea of Prince Charlie Coatees in some other color than black. At a recent SCD formal ball a friend of mine wore a green one with his Lindsey tartan kilt and he looked absolutely smashing. He really stood out in the sea of black jackets.

I will in the fairly near future need to replace my Prince Charlie style coatee and have been considering a navy blue one as an option (which I think would look superb with the XMTS tartan).

My only fear is that this would somehow be considered less formal than a black one.

Cheers

Jamie

[Kerr the Walker]

I will in the fairly near future need to replace my Prince Charlie style coatee and have been considering a navy blue one as an option (which I think would look superb with the XMTS tartan).

My only fear is that this would somehow be considered less formal than black tie.

Cheers

Jamie

I think it would depend on how dark the navy blue is. I have seen "regular" tux jackets in a very dark navy, almost a midnight blue, that looked absolutely fantastic. I say go for it!

...and post pictures of course...

[JSFMACLJR]

I think it would depend on how dark the navy blue is. I have seen "regular" tux jackets in a very dark navy, almost a midnight blue, that looked absolutely fantastic. I say go for it!

...and post pictures of course...

An evening doublet ( I use doublet to mean a jacket worn in the evening with black or white tie ) does not have to match the room full of tuxedos in colour.

[Kerr the Walker]

An evening doublet ( I use doublet to mean a jacket worn in the evening with black or white tie ) does not have to match the room full of tuxedos in colour.

I agree. Within reason. Must they be black? No. But a bright blue and orange paisley jacket wouldn't exactly be tasteful now would it?

However, I think navy, green, claret jackets are well within the realm of tasteful.

[JSFMACLJR]

Sandford,

My only fear is that this would somehow be considered less formal than a black one.

Cheers

Jamie

There might be people who think this, but they would be incorrect! You, my friend, could hold your head up high and wear with impunity a doublet of navy, or green, or claret, and it would certainly be as formal as black.

[McMurdo]

Sandford,

The Prince Charlie is certainly a more modern look than say the regimental doublet or montrose doublet. It is sleeker and simpler than all the other styles of formal jacket / doublet.


Cheers

Jamie

Jamie
As someone who has both the Prince Charlie and the Montrose, I don't think the PC is any sleeker or simple than my Montrose. In fact I would tend to think the opposite is true. The Montrose Doublet to my eye is far sleeker and simpler than the Prince Charlie.

I'll also note than when I first came to kilting I was only to happy to order my Prince Charlie, as my tastes have matured I find the Prince Charlie simply hangs in the closet while I wear the Montorse far more often, it all comes down to personal taste as far as I can see. I am reminded of the following:

Advice for every kilt wearer

"The Highland dress is essentially a 'free' dress -- that is to say, a man's taste and circumstances must alone be permitted to decide when and where and how he should wear it... I presume to dictate to no man what he shall eat or drink or wherewithal he shall be clothed." -- The Hon. Stuart Ruaidri Erskine, The Kilt & How to Wear It, 1901.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

The Prince Charlie is certainly a more modern look than say the regimental doublet or montrose doublet. It is sleeker and simpler than all the other styles of formal jacket / doublet.

Couldn't agree less, Jamie. The PC is a cut down tail coat which owes it post-war popularity to its cheaper price due to its lower cost to manufacture. Instead of "simpler" I'd say it was "skimpier", and that skimpiness shows. It especially shows with regard to the fit of the waistcoat, something you have commented on quite recently.

To me it is a bridge between the traditional highland formal look and a standard dinner jacket / tuxedo.

That's a bridge too far to cross. That accolade belongs to the Argyll jacket, which used to be called the Dress Kilt Jacket. MacKinnon of Dunakin (as quoted initially by Sandy) has this to say on the subject:

"The Dress Kilt Jacket corresponds to a Lowlander's dinner jacket. It can be worn with bow tie or jabot, and is sometimes worn without cuffs, pocket flaps, and epaulettes."

Try removing those bits from a coatee and you end up with what it really is-- a tail coat with the tails whacked off.

I will in the fairly near future need to replace my Prince Charlie style coatee and have been considering a navy blue one as an option (which I think would look superb with the XMTS tartan).

My only fear is that this would somehow be considered less formal than a black one.

As far as Highland attire is concerned, the Prince Charlie coatee is the red-haired stepchild of formal dress. Even if it is Navy Blue.

Jamie, whilst I think doublets can, and sometimes do, look good in colours other than black, I'm afraid we part company when it comes to the Prince Charlie coatee.

Adding colour to a coatee always reminds me of that line from Gilbert & Sullivan-- "mutton dressed as lamb", and all that it implies about "taste".

Chin-chin, off for a G&IT!
Scott

[Bugbear]

... That's a bridge too far to cross. That accolade belongs to the Argyll jacket, which used to be called the Dress Kilt Jacket. MacKinnon of Dunakin (as quoted initially by Sandy) has this to say on the subject:

"The Dress Kilt Jacket corresponds to a Lowlander's dinner jacket. It can be worn with bow tie or jabot, and is sometimes worn without cuffs, pocket flaps, and epaulettes."

Try removing those bits from a coatee and you end up with what it really is-- a tail coat with the tails whacked off. ...

That is an extremely interesting quote from MacKinnon of Dunakin. I think it is worth discussing, or at least re-reading several times.