Scottish heraldic flavor

[saharris]

Hi all,

I am in the process of designing arms for myself (and have been for quite a while now). My question to all of my fellow heralds out there is: What heraldic charges, ordinaries, etcetera, would you consider to be unmistakenly Scottish? I’ve got thistles and the royal tressure, but what else can I add to the list for my consideration?

Thanks, Steven

[macwilkin]

Hi all,

I am in the process of designing arms for myself (and have been for quite a while now). My question to all of my fellow heralds out there is: What heraldic charges, ordinaries, etcetera, would you consider to be unmistakenly Scottish? I’ve got thistles and the royal tressure, but what else can I add to the list for my consideration?

Thanks, Steven

Steven,

The Heraldry Society of Scotland has this article on its web site:

http://www.heraldry-scotland.co.uk/distinctive.html

Regards,

T.

[Chas]

Gyrony of eight and/or a Fess Checky say Scotland to me.

Regards

Chas

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Gyrony of eight and/or a Fess Checky say Scotland to me.

Regards

Chas

They say "Campbell" and "Stewart" to me. Heraldically speaking, only the Scottish Royal Arms say "Scotland".

If you can prove that you are of Scottish descent, why don't you just petition the Lord Lyon for arms? It would seem to me that a substantive (ie: real) coat of arms would be more desirable than something made up on your kitchen table.

[davidlpope]

If you can prove that you are of Scottish descent, why don't you just petition the Lord Lyon for arms? It would seem to me that a substantive (ie: real) coat of arms would be more desirable than something made up on your kitchen table.

I've recently looked into this and it may be more difficult than first appears. I can document Scottish descent, but am not eligible for a grant of Scottish arms. One must be directly descended in the male/ surname-bearing line and have solid documentation to prove it. For those whose ancestors recently immigrated, this works out quite well. For those of us whose ancestors came over very early, solid documentation can be a problem. Likewise, for those of us in the US who bear English-descended surnames, etc., the Lord Lyon has no jurisdiction, as I understand it.


Cordially,

David

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I've recently looked into this and it may be more difficult than first appears. I can document Scottish descent, but am not eligible for a grant of Scottish arms. One must be directly descended in the male/ surname-bearing line and have solid documentation to prove it. For those whose ancestors recently immigrated, this works out quite well. For those of us whose ancestors came over very early, solid documentation can be a problem. Likewise, for those of us in the US who bear English-descended surnames, etc., the Lord Lyon has no jurisdiction, as I understand it.

Broadly speaking you are correct. Lyon will only grant to those persons who bear the same surname as their closest Scottish born ancestor. There may be ways around this (each case is weighed on its own merits) but it can be very difficult to claim arms through female descent.

However, all is not lost. For persons of Scottish (or Irish or English) ancestry in the USA who do not otherwise qualify for arms in one of the above listed jurisdictions, the best option is to apply to the Bureau of Heraldry in South Africa for a grant of arms.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Lord Lyon can and does make what are known as posthumous grants of arms to the ancestors of Americans who were either born or were living in America prior to the Revolutionary War.

This is a common misconception on two counts. First, there is no such thing as a "posthumous" grants. Grants can only be made to living people, not imposed on the dead. Second, while the grant is based on descent from an ancestor born in Scotland, there is no "time limit" imposed. If your grandfather was born in Scotland in 1900, moved to the USA in 1925, and died in 1972, and you were born there in 1980, you could petition Lyon for a grant based on your grandfather's Scottish birth. These grants are in the nature of a "family memorial" and all descendants of the Scottish ancestor mentioned in the grant are entitled to sue out arms based on their genealogical relationship to all of the other known descendants of the ancestor.

What is required in each instance is legal proof of your exact relationship to the Scottish born ancestor. Sometimes this is very difficult to do, especially in North America when a family may have been settled there for several centuries, and record keeping may not have been as precise as some would like. That said, most heraldic authorities will accept "memorial proof"-- things like tombstones and family bibles, as well as the "balance of probability", if that is within legal reasoning.

If one simply can't prove a Scottish ancestor, then there is no point in beating your head against the wall. In Canada the option is to seek out arms from the Chief Herald of Canada, and in the United States (and elsewhere) to apply to the Bureau of Heraldry in South Africa.

Aside from their genealogical and emotional value, there is nothing special about Scottish arms-- they have no greater (or lesser) standing than the substantive arms granted by any other governmental body. Honorary arms (which include devisals of arms), or those which are "self-assumed", on the other hand, have no such standing and are regarded merely as examples (both good and bad) of heraldic designs.

[davidlpope]

Sandford had previously posted this link about specific heraldric devices in West Highland heraldry. It's a good read-

http://www.heraldry-scotland.co.uk/westhigh.html

Cordially,

David

[Mr. MacDougall]

The United States has no armorial authority, and frankly, an American citizen seeking a grant of arms from another country is a bit silly and pretentious, in my view. If you want arms, adopt them.

(and yes, I'm also known as Björn the Navigator, Black Boar Herald of the Barony of Tir Ysgithr, so I do know about that armorial authority, but so does anyone to whom it applies).

[macwilkin]

The United States has no armorial authority, and frankly, an American citizen seeking a grant of arms from another country is a bit silly and pretentious, in my view. If you want arms, adopt them.

(and yes, I'm also known as Björn the Navigator, Black Boar Herald of the Barony of Tir Ysgithr, so I do know about that armorial authority, but so does anyone to whom it applies).

Horses for courses and all that, sir. You are free to disagree, but why mock those who do?

T.