Eye opening construction inspection of my kilt collection

[ForresterModern]

Three recent threads about specific deficiencies in kilt construction from various kiltmakers of allegedly decent repute have left me more than a bit interested and concerned about the construction details of my own kilt collection (I think "put the fear of God in me" would be an apt description):

Bonnie's rebuild thread:
http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...altered-72290/

Tobus's thread with the phenomenal deconstruct-reconstruct tableau by Steve:
http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...-period-70205/

English Bloke's praise turned sour thread:
http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...ilt-bob-72333/

So I took a quick and by no means in depth or deconstructive look at my own kilt collection for signs of any particular design variances and potential deficiencies, and catalogued them below. There are a couple common themes and a few questions that I will bring up as we go through the list. Not being a kiltmaker or even having a copy of Barb and Elsie's book makes me a kilt constuction novice, but still interested and concerned about quality design and build. I will not name specific names of makers here but can discuss them one on one with anyone interested by PM.

Kiltmaker A: 3 8 yard 16 oz wool tartan kilts machine sewn each costing between $300-350, ordered online from a well know Scottish online and bricks and mortar retailer of highlandwear, not a forum advertiser but who has had several positive reviews from forum members, does have a forum presence here though.
Kiltmaker B: 2 8 yard machine sewn wool tartan kilts, one 16oz one 13 oz material, each costing between $300-400, ordered online from a well known Scottish online and bricks and mortar retailer of highlandwear, not a forum member or advertiser but who has had several positive reviews from forum members
Kiltmaker C: 1 8yd machine sewn 16oz wool tartan kilt costing $250-300 ordered through ebay from a now ebay only (to the best of my knowledge) vendor who has been reviewed by several other forum members, mostly positive, not a forum member or advertiser

Discovery: The above 6 kilts are all built with one common design characteristic (potential flaw?). Although all have strong interfacing across the fells extending from one buckle attachment to the other, with both attachments sewn through the interfacing, I cannot verify or deny whether a true stabilizer is present without deconstructing the whole internal guts of the kilt, something which is beyond my ability to repair and which I will not attempt. I have NOT performed Steve's buckle-to-buckle stress test but may do that in the not too distant future. However, my first real noticeable concern is about the construction vis-a-vis the interfacing/hair canvas attachments. There is clearly interfacing sewn into the lining of both aprons as well as across the inside of the fell, BUT the interfacing in the apron , while attched firmly to the straps at the apron margins, ends at the transition from apron to fell on both sides of the kilt and does not connect to the interfacing on the back of the fell, instead being separated from it by approximately 1 inch or a little more.
Question: How much of a problem is this likely to cause in the long run with regard to these kilts' fit and structural integrity? I wear these kilts not daily but usually give or take once a month or every other month, have owned each for between two and four years, and the only thing I have noticed is a tendency to "loosen" during the day unless worn with a firmly tightened belt, but no real distortion of the kilt itself that I have discerned. They are some of my regular "go to" kilts for routine wear and I expect them to remain so in my kilt rotation for the years to come.

Kiltmaker D: 1 "6" yard casual kilt of 16oz tartan, $200, from a North American online and bricks/mortar retailer who is both an advertiser and forum member, generally good reviews

Discovery: Similar to Bonnie's findings on her 8 yd HOE, absolutely no interfacing or stabilizer or even cutout of excess fabric from the fell, retrospectively probably not really a surprise for a casual build kilt. Luckily I do not often wear this kilt although was planning on maybe doing some hiking and possibly backpacking using this kilt this summer. Will just have to see how it stands up to more significant wear.

Kiltmaker B (as above described): 1 8yd 16oz handsewn wool tartan kilt ordered online, cost around $350 despite custom weave tartan
Kiltmaker E: 1 9yd 13oz predominantly handsewn wool tartan kilt, cost around $400-425 after discount for package, bought online/over telephone from a North American retailer with prominent online presence and small bricks/mortar store, not a forum member or advertiser but several positive reviews by forum members
Kiltmaker F: 1 8yd 16oz handsewn wool tartan kilt, cost approx $500 (separate tartan and labor purchases), bought via emails/PMs through forum contacts, independent North American kiltmaker with forum presence but not advertiser, numerous positive reviews here
Kiltmaker G: 3 8yd handsewn wool tartan kilts, 2 of 16oz and 1 of 13oz weight material, each approx $375-400 (separate tartan and labor purchases), bought via emails/PMs through forum contacts, independent North American kiltmaker with forum presence but not advertiser, numerous positive reviews here
Kiltmaker H: 1 5-6yd handsewn Kingussie build 16oz wool tartan kilt, cost approx $360 after discounts, bought online and via emails through North American kiltmaker and member and advertiser, several positive reviews here
Kiltmaker I: 2 8yd 13oz predominantly handsewn wool tartan kilts, cost approx $260-300 after discounts, bought online through prominent online Scottish retailer of kilts and highlandwear, forum advertiser and presence, several positive reviews here
Kiltmaker J: 1 8yd 16oz handsewn wool tartan kilt, cost $300 despite custom weave after discounts, bought online from Scottish online vendor (? bricks/mortar also) no longer in online business (probably lost too much money on deals like mine), no forum presence or advertiser

Discovery: All have heavyweight interfacing sewn into or under lining continuous from apron edge to apron edge as shown in Steve's photo-montage of Tobus's kilt rebuild (second thread above), one in particular using a very heavyweight almost cotton duck twill while most others used hair canvas. Due to sewn down linings in most I cannot verify the presence or absence of stabilizer but at least three of the kiltmakers have commented on the value of stabilizer in their builds previously so I assume they are present in mine as well. I honestly have had no problem with any of these kilts whatsoever as far as fit or finish and no obvious deformations. Less problem with "loosening" after hours of wear unlike the first group.

I also have an 8yd PV casual that I am not even going to bother looking inside as at the price I paid I am still surprised there are even straps and buckles on it--it is definitely the least frequently worn of my collection and will likely at some point be replaced by a proper heavyweight wool traditional in the same tartan.

Conclusions: The extra effort that appears to go into the handsewn kilts shows in the differences in construction as it particulalry relates to the presence or absence as well as quality of interfacing (and possibly stabilizer), with the machine sewn low yardage casual kilt totally lacking in both, the machine sewn 8yd traditionals appearing to have discontinuous interfacing (unknown stabilizer status). However, most of these differences are not obvious to the naked eye, may not even be visible upon inspection without some deconstruction, and are not likely to be the kind of details the average and/or relatively inexperienced kilt buyer would be looking for. Interestingly, although the handsewn kilts I have purchased have been somewhat more expensive than the machine sewn, the cost difference is not that great, and the quality of build is clearly superior, and IMHO well worth the cost differential. Not all handsewn kilts have to be outrageously expensive, as many can be had from reputable retailers in good quality material at a price that is comparable to many machine sewns, or from independent kiltmakers if you can source your own tartan or they can source it at a reasonable price. Lastly, as a twist on an old adage, "Just because its Scottish doesn't mean it's not crap!"

Concerns: I guess I should be concerned about the discontinuous interfacings in the first set of machine sewn kilts, as well as worry about potential absence of stabilizers in all the kilts save those that I can verify directly from the kiltmaker themselves. Next job is to try Steve's bucke-to-buckle strain test to see which ones might or might not have sewn in stabilizers between the buckles across the fell.

This information learned through the willingness of others to share their own experiences and knowledge and expertise in kilt build and design have made me a far more educated shopper when it comes to purchasing any future kilts. One of the many benefits of being an active member of such a forum as this and others. Unfortunately I am nearing the end of the kilt collection portion of my kiltwearing career, although there are still a few more tartans I am either holding currently or considering for future kilts, which I can assure you will be made by an independent kiltmaker of repute.

Sorry for the ramble and if some of this information was redundant or confusing in any way. Thats what I get for writing an OP new thread between 230 and 530 am when I should be sleeping.

jeff

[Tobus]

That's awesome, Jeff! I'm glad you're taking the time to look into these things on your existing kilts, as well as factor them into future purchases. This is the kind of detailed info that benefits everyone.

[Piipriker]

I'm glad you don't charge for this valuable information.

Well done.

[Riverkilt]

Which is why I've stayed with my Scottish trained kiltmaker for my hand sewns. Know I'll get the best quality.

'tis a brave thing you do to look close.....very brave....

[seanachie]

Jeff:
Heartily agree: "This information learned through the willingness of others to share their own experiences and knowledge and expertise in kilt build and design have made me a far more educated shopper when it comes to purchasing any future kilts. One of the many benefits of being an active member of such a forum as this and others."

I have been really enlightened by the threads you mentioned and paying careful attention to the information. If I may say one thing about excess pleating, one kiltmaker told me: "Any 4 or 5 yard kilt has a stabiliser strip, partial steeking, 3-inch wide canvas interfacing. I don't cut out the excess pleating." I have full confidence in this person and there product is first rate so I would not over emphasize that one aspect. Just to be totally clear they also said: "8-yard kilt styles have the pleats cut out, stabiliser strip, full steeking, and canvas extending down to the cut edge of the pleats."

I understand you using Kiltmaker A, Kiltmaker B etc. As a hypothetical question: If Kiltmaker F promised you a hand sewn kilt and advised the stabiliser, interfacing et al were part of the construction, and you received a a kilt well below the mark, obviously machine sewn, no stabilzer, shoddy construction etc. You contacted the kiltmaker and they gave you BS answers and blew you off (so they were afforded full opportunity to address the issue)
would you have the comfort of mentioning who they were?

I would love this be a very rare circumstance and I am sure most people are reputable, and I am a firm believer in giving someone the benefit of the doubt and giving them a chance to make things right FIRST, but this information could prevent someone from being taken.

[creagdhubh]

Wow, very impressive Jeff! Thank you for sharing your detailed kilt information with us, I agree with Tobus' point that this kind of relevant kilt construction data will no doubt benefit many on XMTS.

As to my outlook on the subject and a bit of a sidenote; I make every attempt to find the best possible kiltmaker within my budget, and in the past, I have stuck with and trusted Kinloch-Anderson. I have been fortunate to have one flaw - a kilt strap tha has come loose by the stitching coming out, which more than likely has been from many times of general wear and possibly from the rigors of dancing. I have asked our own Matt Newsome to correct this problem and he happily agreed.

Lately however, and mainly based upon reviews and remarks by other XMTS members, I have decided to pursue other avenues in regards to the selection of my kiltmaker and have most recently commissioned our own Barb Tewksbury to make an 8 yarder for me. Eventually, I wouldn't mind having a box or Kingussie pleated kilt from our own Matt Newsome, and I am sure I will commission him at some point.

XMTS has really given me the intestinal fortitude and motivation to pursue other kiltmakers besides my trusted preference of Kinloch-Anderson, which is pretty incredible I must say, as I have been a staunch supporte of KA for quite some time now.

Best of luck with everything Jeff, and thanks again for sharing a rather 'intimate' discussion of your prized attire.

Slainte mhath,

[Alan H]

I would not worry about the "discontinuous interfacing". I put a layer of interfacing or hair canvas or actual canvas between the tartan and the liner in my kilts, on the over-apron (always) and on the under-apron (on heavier kilts). It's there to add structure to the fabric, where it could be distorted during wearing by the sporran, bend in the hips and so on. It's not "structural" from what I can see, but it does help the kilt drape a little better.

I put no interfacing/hair canvas/regular canvas across the fell, in the back at all. If I cut out the pleats...which I do on 8 yard kilts, but usually not 5-6 yard kilts, then I put in a stabilizing strip. However, I ALWAYS put in some sort of structural element to take the buckling/cinching load.

I love Barb and her book and I learned a lot from it. However, I think that one unintended result of having this book out there is that now there's a conception that there is only ONE WAY to make a "proper kilt" and that's simply not true. Look, Matt Newsome makes box pleat kilts. Does he "cut out the pleats in the fell"? Of course not.....but does that mean that Matts kilts are trash? Of course not.

First of all, a $200 wool, lightweight casual kilt will obviously not have all the structural elements of an $800 item. That shouldn't be a surprise.

Just my thought....instead of worrying about whether every kilt you own has every single structural bit of cloth in it that you think it might need, just strap the things on, and wear them. If they fall apart or distort, then you know that whatever that one is missing, is important. If they don't, then live happily ever after. Again....just my take on it.

[auld argonian]

This is starting to remind me of the Ray Bradbury story "The Fruit At The Bottom Of The Bowl" where the murderer is so worried about leaving evidence that he wipes the fruit at the bottom of the bowl because he's worried that he MAY have left fingerprints there (he didn't...it was all in his mind).

If it gets to be a problem, then start dissecting these kilts to see how they're constructed...if it isn't a problem then it isn't a problem. We're not looking at catastrophic failure here, if there's a problem then you'll see the signs of it ahead of time...it's not like the kilt is going to totally self-destruct while you're wearing it or anything.

It's also not like anybody else is likely to notice it, either. I don't think that you're going to have somebody come up to your at the Highland Games and say."I can see that you're kilt doesn't have a stabilizer." As I have said before, I'm not banking on any of my kilts becoming "heirlooms"...I don't see my grandchildren cutting the lining out and saying, "Boy...grandpa was a real dope...he bought a kilt without a stabilizer sewn in."

All credit to the kiltmakers who do go by the book; they can sleep tonight knowing that they are doing it the best that anybody can...anybody who thinks that they have a bone to pick with the person who made a kilt that isn't performing up to standards should take it up with the kiltmaker...Just sayin' that if your kilt isn't distorting, stabilizer or no, what's the problem?

Best

AA

[Zardoz]

Like Alan said, just like we recognize that there is more than one style of traditional kilt out there, there is more than one way to build them, and price point comes in play as well.

I've read all these threads with interest, but didn't hit the panic button.
I know without looking how my kilts are constructed, the Stillwaters, acyrlic and wool, have liners but no stabilizer. The USAK's , All PV Semi-Trads, have neither.
I wear one or the other of my 7 USA Semi-Trads almost daily, I'm wearing one right now that I've had since 2005, and worn quite a bit in that time, and they are all holding up just fine. Honestly I've never been concerned about any of them exploding or bursting into flames etc..

[Cathy McWilliams]

yes, putting all things in to perspective, if you pay over $600 for a kilt, I'd expect to see the stabilizer, nice hand stitches, steeking....the works. I would not not expect that from a day kilt, modern kilt(utilitkilt, sportkilt, etc) Problem is that I've been brought a lot of kilts to "fix because they never fit right".... upon perfunctory inspection, I am moritified that they paid more than $600 and got less than 8 yard, machine sewn, no stabilizing strip, canvas glued in and some are worse than that.
Good Grief!