Which Clan?

[massmanute]

I have not read all the posts in this thread, only a bit more than half so far, but I wonder if the following question has been addressed: Is being a member of a clan the same thing as being a member of a clan society?

I suspect the answer is that clan membership is not quite the same as clan society membership, or perhaps clan association my not be based so strictly on genealogical relationships as one might suppose, or perhaps it may vary from one clan to another, or maybe there is some other nuance.

As food for thought, let me quote a couple of statements from the membership web page (http://www.ccsna.org/membership/) of the the Clan Campbell Society (North America):

"Membership is open to all who are Campbells, Campbell Septs, married to a Campbell or Campbell Sept, and, in keeping with Scottish traditions, those who want to be associated with the Clan Campbell...."

and a few more quotes from the page:

"The Clan and the Clan Society are not one and the same; the Society is part of the Clan and cannot presume to be the Clan itself. "

"Membership in the Clan Campbell Society (North America) is open to all, regardless of race, nationality, or religion."

From this I presume that, at least as far as the Clan Campbell Society (North America) is concerned, there is quite a bit of leeway regarding one's association with the Clan Campbell, or at least with the Clan Campbell Society, and it is not limited to paternal lineage, or (strictly speaking) even any aspect of lineage, so long as one identifies one's self with the Clan Campbell.

In my case, my closest relative who was born in Scotland was a great great grandfather on my mother's side who was named Alexander Campbell. My mother always told us we are Campbells, though actually neither of her parents had the Campbell surname. Based on my mother's self-identification with her Campbell ancestors I have always thought of myself as a Campbell, at least as my Scottishness is concerned. However, I could probably have just as easily self-identified as a Steele, because Alexander's wife, who was a Steele, was also born in Scotland.

Perhaps other clans may have a different point of view, or perhaps viewpoints may vary depending on whether one is actually Scottish born or simply has some Scottish ancestry somewhere in their line.

Another comment added during editing:

My Scottish ancestors were from Clackmannanshire and Ayrshire as far back as can be determined, which I think are not even in the Highlands of Scotland. (Correct me if i am wrong.) So this could bring up the question of whether my Scottish ancestors are even Highlanders at all... which brings up the further question of whether it even matters.

[Chas]

The difference between being a member of a clan and being a member of a clan association is the difference between heart and head.

I am a Charles and as such the Charleses are a sept of Clan MacKenzie. So in my heart, I owe my allegiance to 'Caberfeidh', the Clan Chief, who is John MacKenzie the 5th Earl of Cromatie.

On the other hand, my head tells me that if I join the Clan Association, I will never rise to a position within the committee or anywhere near. Why, because it is the Association policy always to have members of the 'name'. They also prefer the septs to wear the hunting tartan rather than the clan tartan. Welcoming? Hmm...

So, what do I do? Well,I save my money for a start, I have no great desire to join a group that only wants my wallet and me if I bring it with me.

I served my country for 12 years and I suppose Her Majesty is the Chief of the only clan to which I really owe any allegiance.

A bunch of strangers, who I might not even like - I don't think so.

Regards

Chas

[massmanute]

Chas,

It sounds like there may be some distinct differences between different clan associations. It appears that the Clan Campbell association (at least the North American branch) might be a bit more welcoming than the Clan MacKenzie association.

My membership in the Clan Campbell (North America) is temporarily lapsed, and I have only gone to a few meetings, but when I have gone I have felt only welcoming feelings from the group... this despite the fact that my Surname is actually English. (However, as far as number of generations removed from the homelands, my nearest Scotish ancestors are less remote than my English ancestor responsible for my surname.)

I wonder if difference noted between the clan associations are mainly due to a difference in geography (a North American branch of one association vs. a UK branch of the other) or a difference between the attitudes of the clans themselves.

I suppose it doesn't make much difference in the great cosmic scheme of things, but it would be interesting to know the answer.

[Peter Crowe]

I served my country for 12 years and I suppose Her Majesty is the Chief of the only clan to which I really owe any allegiance.


Regards

Chas

Well as Her Majesty is the descendent (albeit through the Electoress Sophia of Hanover) of the ancient 'Ard Righs' (High Kings or Chief of Chiefs) of the Kingdom of Scotland, you could do no better Chas.

[O'Callaghan]

Clan allegiance is supposed to be to a chief. There are some clans with no active society and some clans with no hereditary chief, and you don't have to belong to a society to be a member of a clan, so no, it's not the same.

I consider myself to belong to my mother's Irish clan. My father's family is entirely English, as far as anyone knows. There is an existing hereditary chief of Clan Callaghan (in Spain!), but AFAIK the clan society is defunct, although there was one at one time, based in Ireland.

A much more common situation would be the opposite, where there is a society but no chief. Also, most of the societies seem to be based in the US, although some clans have separate societies in multiple countries, only loosely linked together.

Irish family tartans, though many exist, are rarely worn, as they generally have to be woven specially, so cost too much. There's no great tradition of wearing them either, but that's a chicken-and -egg situation, as long as weavers don't offer them ex stock.

[WVHighlander]

Interesting reads to be sure. I know I belong to two Clans. One is my Scottish Clan Cochrane. Its small but the people in it are a good bunch of folks. The second, like Chas, is my Regiment. Its small but its a good bunch of hard nosed men who have served God and Country for the better part of 60 years. ...and both have a tartan.

[SouthernCelt]

As I was taught,

A Child inherits the Clan identity of its Father at birth. If the child is female, and marries within the Highland System, she assumes the clan identity of her new husband. If she marries outside the Highland System, she retains the clan identity she was born with and passes it on to her children.


Mom was a Scot, Dad wasn't so I belong to my Mother's Clan despite bearing my Father's surname, which is customary in the U.S.A. Therefore my son also belongs to my Mother's Clan and will pass it on to his children as defined above.

[Gael Ridire]

Wow, this thread has been fascinating to follow! I've struggled with this concept for all of my 22 years of wearing a kilt. Jock Scot has given me much to think about here and in other posts. So has MacMillan of Rathdowne.

First to Southern Celt - My son is soon to marry a fine young lady who is a quarter Scottish, a quarter Spanish, and half Jewish. She thinks and calls herself a Jew. But she is wrong. She might be a blood Jew, but not a birthright Jew. Hebrews and Picts are a Matriarchal lineage. Since her father is a Galician (a small country that was broken up after WWI into Slovakia, Poland, & Ukraine) Jew, she isn't a Jew at all as far as a practicing Jew is concerned. So does a Scots woman who marries out of the clan pass her birthright on to her son, I don't know?

I empathize with Rondo and his view, I'd say he was seeing from "Cowboy diplomacy," and that's okay with me, cause I tend to view things or have attitude from that point too.

My grandfather wanted to be a cowboy, period! Hated it when my grandmother smacked his huge Pallimeno horse alongside the head as it was going to kill my father who was a toddler playing in the yard. I tend not dress like a cowboy although I live amongst them.

22 years ago I was on the tail end of researching my family history (all lines), when assigned to cover a Scottish festival. It was if I had come home. I battled on picking a clan, right then and there I chose Clan Gunn, only because they were the only clan represented there in my lineage. But two years later changed to clan Kennedy. Why? My Gunn lineage came to US in 1648!, the first Scot line I could trace to Scotland was Kennedy from Ayrshire. Have Scots on either side of the family. To them I associated with for over ten years until the chief died, then a couple years later the US chief died and ugly politics took over. During this time spent five years on the state Scottish Association board of directors. Then came the next millennium and a national Boy Scout jamboree held locally the same weekend as the state games of which I gripped big time about but took my family to the four day event. And have never worn my kilt since or attended the festival. Why? It now cost to much and my family didn't care.

Scott MacMillan makes an excellent point about serving two masters, and in this again I struggle. The state I live in has the lowest percentage of Irish in the US, but a very active Scottish association. My thoughts kept getting hung up with the fact that my surname was Irish, and we have a bonnefide recognized chief, but after 12 years he has no interest in the clan society. But I still have this burning desire to celebrate my Celtic/Gaelic heritage. So once again the dilemma of choosing a clan: Gunn, Kennedy, Scott, Kerr, Robertson, MacNeil, MacPhie, Douglas, Stuart, Dunbar, MacLean, or Strachan, and I love my Irish heritage & clan. Unfortunately to some of you I'm committing a wrong by combining my Irish & Scottish. When I strapped on the kilt I feel connected to my lineage, so I've chosen the Irish National Tartan. 1) To honor my Irish heritage, 2) it's tartan and thus honor to my Scottish heritage who came up with weaving tartan and wearing the kilt, 3) okay so the Irish didn't historically wear the kilt in tartan or solid colors, but the Gaelic League in 1888 or so chose the clothing a a way to make a statement to London of nationalism. I like that the Cornish adopted the kilt to make a statement to the world that they are Celts not English. The world associates the kilt not only with the Scots, but with the Celts too. Personally I hate divisions in the Celt/Gaelic world, so let there be the various tartans to the Scots, the six or so national or district tartans to the Cornish & Welsh, & Ireland, but perhaps a couple of district tartans each for the four provinces of Ireland. Common on, what's four more to the 3200 or so that already exist.

At first I didn't like the modern utility kilts & such. It bucked tradition! But now I've warmed up to the idea, even thinking of wearing them myself. To me it is the evolution of the culture. Just as art & music of the culture is continuing to evolve. Some I will like, some I will not, some I won't care.

Sorry for the mix up, I'll probably have some screwy grandchildren who won't know there history well, but by gosh they'll look good in their ignorance! And some kid who has just moved here from the east coast is going to accuse them of "Cowboy attitude!"

[Meggers]

I have ties to two particular Scottish PEOPLE from Scotland but I am currently working to trace them back further to see if I have any clan affiliations. The first is my great-great-great-grandpa on my fathers side going down the male line (so we share a last name with him). And the second is my 5th great-grandfather through my mothers side whose name was John Poole.

The line that I am hoping to trace back to a clan is Robert Walker, the Scot through my paternal side, because our last name has a lot of stories and history. He is also closer to me considering he's only my 3rd great-grandfather whereas the other is my 5th. so far Im hitting dead ends on the Walker stuff using basic, free online tools but Ive heard we could be tied to MacGregor, MacNucator, and a few other ideas.

[WVHighlander]

Like I said before I have enjoyed participating in the Clan activities when I can. It has been especially interesting since I was raised away from my paternal side AND my paternal side had no idea of their own background.

Like many others on this forum I have been doing research on this line and have ran into a brick wall circa 1830. I am keeping my fingers crossed that I can break through the wall and trace the line back to their origination...

The only downside to being a member in my Clan is that the Tartan is both expensive and hard to find!