Origins of the kilt, is it Celtic or not?

[Archangel]

I am not sure exactly what you call it... But the animal sign I am associated with, I guess my totemic animal, crap, I don't know enough about this part of my culture, whatever it's called, it's a thunderbird. I believe I was born to be a Trickster, which is a special type of shaman. At least, some of my family seems to think so. (They also think this is why I wear women's clothing )

Anyhoo, back of subject, the Native Americans had a kilt like garmet. It's quite spiffy.

I can see Trickster, that seems to fit you. I don't think there was a real negative connotation, wear it well.

Most cultures had a kilt like garment. This is why this kind of post gets so repititious. First define "kilt", define "male skirt like garment"; research history of clothing; argue historical definitions, religious implications, people migrations, cultural borrowing, cultural memory; study history of manufacturing processes, dyes, weaving; separate modern fantasy from historical reality; research, build a library, visit one, use internal search features on the board; etc, etc, etc. Then within a week do it all over again.

but, learning is fun, tell me more about this Native American garment, please.

[James]

What a delightful thought-charging into the fray crying that fearsome battle cry of 'Wooden Shoe': would the sabot AT come when the shoe is removed?

James

[macwilkin]

What a delightful thought-charging into the fray crying that fearsome battle cry of 'Wooden Shoe': would the sabot AT come when the shoe is removed?

James

The connection comes from 19th century artillery rounds, James. During the American Civil War, artillery used "fixed ammunition", which consisted of the round itself, attached to a wooden block with tin straps, and then a flannel powder bag, which contained the black powder -- the wooden block was known as a "sabot", which is French for "wooden shoe", as you mentioned.

It is also the root word for "sabotage", since factory workers in Europe would throw the shoes into machinery to "sabotage" it and slow down or stop production, at least according to one origin of the word.

Cheers,

Todd

[Dreadbelly]

Archangel, and anybody else for that matter, here is some info on the thunderbird. And here is some info on the trickster as well. Both are interesting reads. It may very well explain my contrary nature.

As for Native American kilts, I don't remember the name exactly but they were called a sepeta or sapeta or something like that. There were others too... Some were even pleated, with two aprons in the front, very much like a kilt. Warriors wore them for freedom of movement, to be able to squat down and hunker in the brush so that they might hunt or ambush. The Navajo in particular wove cloth and made beautiful kilt-skirt like garmets that the men wore, for both dancing and for battle, with intricate designs wove in to the fabric, very much like a tartan. Well, not like a tartan in the sense that it was plaid looking... But in complex detail. Pictures of men, heros, mythological figures, landscapes, scenery, all these things could be wove in to the cloth and it would tell a story.

[Doc Hudson]

The connection comes from 19th century artillery rounds, James. During the American Civil War, artillery used "fixed ammunition", which consisted of the round itself, attached to a wooden block with tin straps, and then a flannel powder bag, which contained the black powder -- the wooden block was known as a "sabot", which is French for "wooden shoe", as you mentioned.

It is also the root word for "sabotage", since factory workers in Europe would throw the shoes into machinery to "sabotage" it and slow down or stop production, at least according to one origin of the word.

Cheers,

Todd

James,

Please note that Sir Robert said "battleCARRY" not "battle Cry".

And Todd, in this case, you are mistaking current armament reference for historical reference. Sir Robert is not referring to the wooden saboted fixed or semi-fixed cannon balls of muzzle-loading days, but the modern Sabot load for tank guns.

The modern Sabot load features a sub-caliber dart made of depleted uranium fitted into a discarding sabot to fill the bore. These rounds reach phenomenal velocities and punch through tank armor like an icepick through paper.

Here is a link to a short article on APFSDS (Armor Piercing Fin-Stabilised Discarding Sabot) Ammunition: http://www.army-technology.com/contr...ion/apfsds.htm

[An t-Ileach]

Given that the (real) Scots were the Dal Riadans, who influenced the peoples east of the Druimn Albainn, and probably acquired things from them in return, and the Kingdom of Dal Riada originated in northern Ireland (possibly limited to the west by the Bann rivers) it would be unsurprising if the Scots did the same as the Irish. And as various writers (such as Cairney) suggest that the Erainnian Gaels might have had a Cruibhne origin too, it would be only natural if all these peoples dressed more or less the same. And given the sea-borne trade up and down the Celtic Sea, with intermarriages and population transfers, we shouldn't exclude the early Welsh from this.

So, it's quite likely that they all wore the leine and brat in some fashion: the leine was worn longer than it was in later times, namely to the ankle. It was probably girded with some device like a belt. I read somewhere (Ian Grimble?) that to ride one horse back, or to run when fighting, the leine was hitched up to the knee, or even above it. Could this have established a common style or wearing it, and securing the brat? It's very picturesque (Hollywood-style) to have a flowing cloak billowing out behind you, but I reckon it would be a bloody nuisance in a battle and I would expcet that most people would tie it around them so as not to snag in things - or give the enemy something to grab hold of.

[macwilkin]

James,

Please note that Sir Robert said "battleCARRY" not "battle Cry".

And Todd, in this case, you are mistaking current armament reference for historical reference. Sir Robert is not referring to the wooden saboted fixed or semi-fixed cannon balls of muzzle-loading days, but the modern Sabot load for tank guns.

The modern Sabot load features a sub-caliber dart made of depleted uranium fitted into a discarding sabot to fill the bore. These rounds reach phenomenal velocities and punch through tank armor like an icepick through paper.

Here is a link to a short article on APFSDS (Armor Piercing Fin-Stabilised Discarding Sabot) Ammunition: http://www.army-technology.com/contr...ion/apfsds.htm

Yes, Doc, I am familiar with the modern Sabot round. I was just explaining the connection between the "wooden shoe" and artillery. Many of the artillery officers and NCO's I have spoken to at the battlefield during a military staff ride instantly "perk their ears up" when they hear the word and it's 19th century usage.

T.

[Archangel]

Given that the (real) Scots were the Dal Riadans, who influenced the peoples east of the Druimn Albainn, and probably acquired things from them in return, and the Kingdom of Dal Riada originated in northern Ireland (possibly limited to the west by the Bann rivers) it would be unsurprising if the Scots did the same as the Irish. And as various writers (such as Cairney) suggest that the Erainnian Gaels might have had a Cruibhne origin too, it would be only natural if all these peoples dressed more or less the same. And given the sea-borne trade up and down the Celtic Sea, with intermarriages and population transfers, we shouldn't exclude the early Welsh from this.

So, it's quite likely that they all wore the leine and brat in some fashion: the leine was worn longer than it was in later times, namely to the ankle. It was probably girded with some device like a belt. I read somewhere (Ian Grimble?) that to ride one horse back, or to run when fighting, the leine was hitched up to the knee, or even above it. Could this have established a common style or wearing it, and securing the brat? It's very picturesque (Hollywood-style) to have a flowing cloak billowing out behind you, but I reckon it would be a bloody nuisance in a battle and I would expcet that most people would tie it around them so as not to snag in things - or give the enemy something to grab hold of.

This might help. Picture the Eurasia land mass and sort of place your hand over India. Broadly sweep your hand west, heading north of the Mediterranean. At the coast of France and over the British Isles do a couple of circles. The Atlantis is the limit.
This exercise illustrates the migration of the Celtic people. Causes vary but they have travelled for centuries. Some settle in different spots. Paul's letter to the Galatians (Gale - Gael - Celt) indicates one point in the migration. Ceasar's war in now France indicate another. Within Britain the Celts are moved by the Romans, Saxons, etc. When there is peace they move back to a previous place, or not. The Celtic migration affected most of Europe and as they were displaced, so they displaced others, sometimes other Celts. As much as they influenced cultures they also absorbed other influences.

We're back to the web of history: a thread pulled here, causes a spider to move there. History is not as linear or as simplistic as "a people moved there."

[Archangel]

So, it's quite likely that they all wore the leine and brat in some fashion: the leine was worn longer than it was in later times, namely to the ankle. It was probably girded with some device like a belt. I read somewhere (Ian Grimble?) that to ride one horse back, or to run when fighting, the leine was hitched up to the knee, or even above it. Could this have established a common style or wearing it, and securing the brat? It's very picturesque (Hollywood-style) to have a flowing cloak billowing out behind you, but I reckon it would be a bloody nuisance in a battle and I would expcet that most people would tie it around them so as not to snag in things - or give the enemy something to grab hold of.

Fighting in tunics:
witness Bible, "gird up your loins" meaning gather all the loose cloth and tie it in a way that doesn't interfere with your fighting.
witness Julius Ceasar: Celts fought naked.
witness Hollywood: see Ceasar add censors.
Unless the fighter is Batman, the cloth is a liability.

[Sir Robert]

Ok Scots and Irish dressed about the same, from 500 to 1000AD, right? At least prior to the time period where we beleive the great kilt likely had it's origins (1600s). Irish dress (Leine & brat) were outlawed by the English in Ireland in 1200s to suppress Irish nationalism. The kilt was outlawed in 1745 to keep the Scots down, also by the English.

So if we follow this line of thought, the Irish and Scottish clothes had gone their seperate ways before the great kilt was born thus the kilt can NOT be considered "Irish."

Now as a second possability what if instead the great kilt in Scotland and the leine & brat have a common ancestor in the toga which is likely at least 5000 years old and brought out of the Med by the Celts then the little kilt could be said to be the remains of a Pan-Celtic Toga.

What you think?