Too Fearful!

[James]

I've started a new track so as not to get lost in, or confuse the UNDERKILT debate.

For to be blunt I detected just too much fear of words, and thoughts of one's rationale for wearing the kilt being misunderstood.

During my life I have seen very effeminate men wearing the kilt with all the maccho accessories. I've also seen very masculine men wearing the Greek short white much pleated fustanella, and the same with chaps in the east wearing sarongs. My daughter for her school uniform wore a skirt that would on this board be defined as a kilt. A part of my military uniform was a 'blouse', and it never occured to anyone that it might be an effeminate gament. Or what about members of the US Navy being 'frocked' upon reaching a certain rank.

By the same token women wear trousers, shirts and coats: boxer shorts and underpants too: yet they do not getb in a lather about being thought unfeminine. Rather they face down anyone stupid enough to make such a suggestion.

I could go on: but why bother?

The point is that we must not be frightened of words, rather by our own way of life and attitude, we must show that the garment/s we are wearing is an entirely masculine one.

So who cares-or should care that the garment being sold as an underkilt might be called a slip: for it is just a garment.

Too to get worried about garments being sold as 'mock kilts' I think was the expression: a bit late now, bearing in mind the Utilikilt: which I understand is being worn by both sexes.

So the problem, if there is a problem, is of chaps being frightened of words: and forgetting that what really matters is their own life style and approach. Oddly enough getting excited and unhappy about one's kilt being called a skirt, or the underkilt being called a slip: is in fact indicative of weakness, and personal doubts: not something that I for one would wish to display.

So rather than worry about words, it is attitude-one's own attitude that matters.

Sorry if I'm a bit abrasive.

James

[Graham]

Well said James, and thought provoking as always

[cavscout]

I think "fear of words" is an over simplification of the issue.

The way I see it, we don't need to be hyper-sensitive to everyone who ignorantly calls the kilt a skirt. If the person is not intending to insult or offend we are man enough to let this slide.

The problem arises in situations like your daughters skirt being considered a kilt. This is becuase the schools have not respected the tradition of a "Kilt". Becuase the general public has been allowed to call anything they want a kilt the word has lost much of it's meaning to all but a few of us who value that word.

I understand your point but I don't think we should just shrug off the power of words. If we do not defend the Kilt from being bastardized by those who do not value the heritage and tradition of it then we are to blame.

[Iolaus]

I've started a new track so as not to get lost in, or confuse the UNDERKILT debate.

For to be blunt I detected just too much fear of words, and thoughts of one's rationale for wearing the kilt being misunderstood.

During my life I have seen very effeminate men wearing the kilt with all the maccho accessories. I've also seen very masculine men wearing the Greek short white much pleated fustanella, and the same with chaps in the east wearing sarongs. My daughter for her school uniform wore a skirt that would on this board be defined as a kilt. A part of my military uniform was a 'blouse', and it never occured to anyone that it might be an effeminate gament. Or what about members of the US Navy being 'frocked' upon reaching a certain rank.

By the same token women wear trousers, shirts and coats: boxer shorts and underpants too: yet they do not getb in a lather about being thought unfeminine. Rather they face down anyone stupid enough to make such a suggestion.

I could go on: but why bother?

The point is that we must not be frightened of words, rather by our own way of life and attitude, we must show that the garment/s we are wearing is an entirely masculine one.

So who cares-or should care that the garment being sold as an underkilt might be called a slip: for it is just a garment.

Too to get worried about garments being sold as 'mock kilts' I think was the expression: a bit late now, bearing in mind the Utilikilt: which I understand is being worn by both sexes.

So the problem, if there is a problem, is of chaps being frightened of words: and forgetting that what really matters is their own life style and approach. Oddly enough getting excited and unhappy about one's kilt being called a skirt, or the underkilt being called a slip: is in fact indicative of weakness, and personal doubts: not something that I for one would wish to display.

So rather than worry about words, it is attitude-one's own attitude that matters.

Sorry if I'm a bit abrasive.

James

It's not a fear of the words; it's fear of blending the line between masculine and feminine to the point that the terms are meaningless, as is the case at Tom"s Cafe.

It sounds like you're saying that if a freestyler were to come here talking about the light-weight kilt that his catholic older sister gave him after graduation, and how much he enjoyed having it riding up on his mid-thigh with his crotchless panties because of the "personal freedom" he feels, then we would be showing our "weakness and personal doubts" if we were to call him on it. After all, he's "psuedo-regimental" and has an apron and pleats doesn't he?

I'm one of those that does defend the UK as an evolved kilt, but evolution is a slow process. I think UKs has moved that proccess about as quickly as possible (and in some cases, too quickly), but just as in the biological theory, some things will work and some things won't; it is the consumer base (us) that will determine what survives. If we do not have the discussions on what will be accepted, then anything will be accepted, and we will be back at Tom's.

[Colin]

It's not a fear of the words; it's fear of blending the line between masculine and feminine to the point that the terms are meaningless, as is the case at Tom"s Cafe.

It sounds like you're saying that if a freestyler were to come here talking about the light-weight kilt that his catholic older sister gave him after graduation, and how much he enjoyed having it riding up on his mid-thigh with his crotchless panties because of the "personal freedom" he feels, then we would be showing our "weakness and personal doubts" if we were to call him on it. After all, he's "psuedo-regimental" and has an apron and pleats doesn't he?

I'm one of those that does defend the UK as an evolved kilt, but evolution is a slow process. I think UKs has moved that proccess about as quickly as possible (and in some cases, too quickly), but just as in the biological theory, some things will work and some things won't; it is the consumer base (us) that will determine what survives. If we do not have the discussions on what will be accepted, then anything will be accepted, and we will be back at Tom's.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! That's perfect! =))

[bear]

"X Marks the Scot is a community of kilt wearers and those who encourage the wearing of kilts. Kilts are a man's garment and it is our goal to promote the wearing of the kilt in more than just the "Highland Games" situation. This is not a forum for men looking to wear womens clothing nor is it a forum for other types of men's unbifurbricated garments. If you want to know more about kilts then you have come to the right place!"

It's not about words. That has been made clear in the other post. Why try and make this something other than it is?
It is about keeping this forum kilts only. Some here think the underkilt is kilt related. Fine. But there have been reviews/comments/mention of his other skirts on this site.
Shall we open the flood gates just a tiny bit and see what happens? Remember, it wasn't political or religious arguments/flames that made us leave Tom's. It was crossdressing and talk of feminine habits taken up by men.
With the rigid rules regarding politics/religion on this site, I wonder at the comparative slackness for the real problem.
And James, I have few doubts, seldom feel weak, and fear very little in my life.
What a woman complains about or doesn't complain about has nothing to do with my kilts.
The Utilikilt, in spite of claims to the opposite, was designed after the Celtic kilt. (Unless Steve pulled the design out of thin air.) Actually, there are museum kilts with the exact same pleating. So doubting whether Utilikilts are real kilts is silly. Add pockets to a kilt and it's still a kilt.

JDEZ took a poll on Tom's to see if anyone minded calling his skirts kilts.
Then he started calling them kilts.
Then he changed the name to mock kilts.
Even his fustanella inspired skirt is called a kilt!

Why don't you get on JDEZ's case? He seems just as, if not more so, concerned about the choice of words than I am! He is more concerned about how his product is perceived than I. But you only choose to see your perceived fear on the faces that disagree with your position.
I just don't want his skirts on the all kilt site.

[Archangel]

We're going to get all silly about this kilt/skirt word again. Best wishes aside, get used to it, a kilt is a type of skirt. It's a type of skirt called a kilt whether it's worn by a Catholic schoolgirl or my grandfather in the trenches.
It's what's inside that counts.

Granted my grandfather's kilt is going to heavier than the schoolgirl's, and that would be part of my defining. However, bear in mind that my grandfather's kilt would be far heavier than anything available on the market today so we're back to square one.

Vocabulary reflects ideology: break free from the limitations of the word as well as the clothes. Get over it, move on, that part of life really doesn't matter. Enjoy the breeze.

[Bob C]

Words mean things. That's why we have them.

[Ruanaidh]

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.'

'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'

[Rob]

It's a type of skirt called a kilt whether it's worn by a Catholic schoolgirl or my grandfather in the trenches.

As far as we residents of the UK are concerned, grandfathers in the trenches wore kilts, and schoolgirls wear kilted skirts. The two are not the same regardless of the fact that Americans (incorrectly) refer to Catholic schoolgirls' skirts as kilts.

Rob