Differences in Mills?

[Captain]

I have a question about a particular tartan. When my beautiful bride and I were married I wore piece of tartan that I then draped on her. I wasn't into kilts at the time (though I did want to be married in one, but we did fast and on a budget instead of drawn-out and overblown... no she wasn't pregnant), and didn't really think much of it until now. Now I want a kilt in the same tartan, the Cian tartan, the clan to which my family would've been associated with. I found a mill weaving the cloth in 13 oz wool and Matt Newsome will be sewing it up... but just because my wife's paranoia is wearing off on me, I ordered a swatch first... And the two fabrics don't match. I mean, it's the same pattern, even though the sett is smaller on the new fabric... but the hue is way different. Now, I think I actually like the newer one myself, but is there normally this much variance between mills?



The one on the left is the newer fabric that Strathmore Woolen Company sells and the one on the right is the sash I bought directly from the clan (via the web site)... So is this normal, or is this more a case of someone doesn't really have permission to reproduce the tartan and just kinda guessed?

[Kid Cossack]

Captain, this is just me spouting off, and I think the man with the answer you're looking for is named "Matt Newsome." With that ritualistic belittling of what I'm about to say out of the way, here's my take. A tartan isn't defined so much by it's shade, as by it's thread count. The "Campbell ancient" philabeg I have is, by thread count, indistinguishable from Black Watch, aka Gov't Sett, aka etc. etc. ad infinitum. The color is quite different.

Sett size, and the "shade" of color, is really . . . unimportant? Negligible? Going to a thicker yarn will give a larger sett, and you could theoretically put a "2x" in front of every thread count . . . which would give you a much larger sett. Witness, on color, the variations between how "modern" and "ancient" and "weathered" look from the various mills.

I hope I've quelled, to a degree, the paranoia. (And remember: paranoia can be your friend! It has been to me on many an occasion!) With luck Matt, or perhaps Cajunscot, will weigh in on this matter.

I am but an enthusiastic amateur, but I wouldn't worry about the difference in either sett size, or shade of thread. And I think Strathmoore is a pretty reputable vendor, to boot. (Not positive, but that's my impression.)

[auld argonian]

This is of interest to me since I've set my sights on a kilt in Robertson Hunting Ancient...when you look at the images of the tartan from different mills, there's a lot of difference in terms of how bright or muted they look. Obviously, I'd have to look at actual swatches to get the real color...lots of variation with photography and software and monitors. It does seem, though, that there's some serious variation out there all of the other factors aside. The internet can be a big help but it can also lead to some confusion as well.

I'm sure that there's been variation in the color of the yarn even over the past ten or twenty years...I'm hoping that Matt ventures an opinion...hope that he can steer you in a matching direction. You were wise to get a swatch first, though.

Best

AA

[HeathBar]

Yes. In my case, modern hunting Barclay from House of Edgar looks different than modern hunting Barclay from Strathmore. Different mills will ge their wool thread from different places and use different dyes. So the blue from one, might not look like blue from another. What you could do is send Matt the scarf and let him choose. The sash is probably featherweight material, not suitable for kilts. If no one else produces it, he could have woven for you.

[Captain]

Yeah, I've talked to Matt before about having it woven (because I didn't realize that Strathmore stocked it), and it's a little cost prohibitive (at least for me). To my knowledge there is no hunting, ancient, etc. variation so I guess this does just boil down to different yarns and dies. I actually think I like the one from Strathmore better, it's a more "wear-able" shade of blue for me.

[James MacMillan]

<snip> but is there normally this much variance between mills?

The down and dirty answer is - Yes. There can be very much difference between the fabric colors that come from different mills.

That is one of the reasons that you always want to order a fly plaid at the same time that you order your kilt. Then, if you want to go high formal, with fly plaid, the tartans will match. -And if you never use the (roughly 1 meter by 1 meter) square of tartan as a fly plaid, you can give it to your lady to wear as a shaw.

The next time that you have a chance to go to a Highland gathering or Highland Games, stop in several of the Clan tents, and you will see wide variations between the tartans.

And we are not even talking about the difference of Old, Ancient, Weathered, Modern, Different wool dyes, different wool blends....... the differences in your tartan can be amazing.

[emolas]

Not just differences between mills, there can be differences even within the mill. Just like when you buy 2 cans of paint they can be different shades; I'm sure dyes from different lots can be off a bit as well. Not to mention the hair from one sheep might be more receptive to the color than another and natural pigmentation differences between different batches of wool can skew the color a bit. Quality control would keep the variations within the mill to nearly unnoticable levels but, as James said, if you want something to match EXACTLY (flashes, plaid, etc) it needs to come off the same bolt.

[gilmore]

In addition to the color variances discussed above, the size of the sett varies with with weight of the wool. A 16 oz wool sett will be larger than a 13 oz even though the thread count is the same.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

All of the above that people have said is largely true. I will only add that it isn't even really "thread count" that defines a tartan (as Kid said), but really the overall design. I'm not faulting Kid for saying that at all, as it is a mostly true statement. But sometimes you will encounter some minor variation in the thread count, and usually that's just fine.

Your tartan here is a case in point. Of course the largest difference in the cloth between the two mills is the color. The mystery mill on the right is obviously quite lighter in tone than the cloth produced by Strathmore. But there is more difference than that. Some of the proportion has changed.

If you look at the main yellow pivot stripe in the Strathmore sample, you will see that the black and blue lines that border it are the same width. If you look at that same stripe on the right sample, you will see that the yellow stripe is twice as wide as the black and blue. Sometimes this kind of doubling of a pivot line happens as a result of a misread of the thread count -- sometimes thread counts are recorded with a half pivot, and sometimes they are recorded with a full pivot. If you don't know what you are looking at, you could mistakenly weave the tartan with pivots twice as large as they should be. The normal practice today is to record a full pivot.

I don't think that's what happened here, though because the other pivot (the wide blue portion of the tartan) is not doubled in proportion. No, I think the two mills just have differing opinions as to what would create a balanced looking tartan. And that's ok.

You'll also notice that the mill on the right used black instead of a dark blue for those portions of the tartan (maybe they used a very dark navy blue, but on my monitor it looks black). Maybe that's because they thought a black would provide more contrast to the lighter colors? Who knows? Substituting black and dark blue is not unheard of in the tartan world (look at the two different MacAlpine tartans, for instance).

My point is that while the above differences represent changes in the tartan, they are minor changes does for aesthetic purposes. Anyone familiar with the Cian tartan would still look at the pattern and recognize it as the Cian pattern. Variation such as this from one woolen mill to another is actually quite common in the tartan world.

And it's not necessarily a bad thing, because it gives the consumer/wearer of the tartan some choice. And it is how the mills compete. Why would you wear the House of Edgar's tartan over Lochcarron or Strathmore or Marton Mills or any other mill? Because you like the way they produce your particular tartan. Someone else in your clan may prefer Lochcarron's cloth. And that's just fine. It lets people have some choice.

Now, a question you might have is, "Which one does the clan use?" Well, if you go to the clan web site, which is http://www.clancian-carroll.com/ (warning, it plays an audio file when you load it), you will see that the image of the tartan they show is like the one on the right. That's no surprise, as you bought that cloth from the clan! (I also note that if you go to the clan gift shop, they don't seem to have any tartan items for sale listed).

On the other hand, if you look at the STA records, the Cian tartan that they have listed matches the Strathmore sample. Looking at the STA notes, they say they have their woven sample from D. C. Dalgliesh. That means that at least two woolen mills have woven the tartan this way!

I also went back and looked at the old Scottish Tartans Society records (they originally recorded the tartan), and note that their image of the tartan looks like the Strathmore sample except that it appears to use black instead of a dark blue. However, when I went and looked at the actual thread count instead of just the image, I saw that it called for Navy Blue, not black, so here it was a case of the navy blue just looking rather dark.

Of course, a really big question is what is available? To the best of my knowledge, the only woolen mill producing this tartan in a kilt weight is Strathmore. This will, of course, limit your selection! And it also means that most people in the clan out there who have kilts will have them made from this cloth.

As for the other sample, do we know what mill the clan bought their tartan from? Do we know if it was stocked, or was it a special weave for the clan? And did that mill produce it in a weight heavy enough for kilting?

And, of course, the most important thing is, what version do you like?
Aye,
Matt

[Captain]

Wow... I was hoping you'd reply Matt, but I didn't think you'd write a book on the subject. LOL.

I had noticed the change in proportion and I do like the more balanced look of the Strathmore. The darker stripes are actually Navy on both fabrics, it's just the whole computer thing messing with them.

It makes sense what you said about mills competing, I never quite looked at it that way. I guess in my mind a tartan was a tartan was a tartan, how could it change?

The sash I have (as near as I can tell) is 11oz, so not suitable for a short-yardage kilt, plus I've talked with various clan members and they've tried to get enough orders to do a special run the way it look in the sash, but to no avail... so I know no one else is stocking it like that, and it's not likely that they'll get enough together to get a run of it anywho.

All told, I really do like the Strathmore coloration better, again I think it's a more "wear-able" color (I'm not big into pastels... though the wife loves baby blue), the main thing was the shock of seeing it not match what I was married in. Upon further discussion with the little lady, I think if they ever do a run of the lighter color we'll get her a kilted skirt in it, since she likes baby blue better, and we figure the difference between the two of us will be a good thing (we can't stand to match in public... it's just one of those weird things).

Thanks for all the answers guys, this has been a very informative post and answered a lot of questions that have cropped up about several tartans that I've noticed differences in!