Clan badges vs family crests??

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

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Hi Scot, No, all siblings a re not entitled to display their fathers arms undifferented, the heir apparent has to display a three point label on the arms to show he is the heir apparent. All other male siblings use temporary cadency marks crescent, star, martlet etc 2nd 3rd and 4th sons for example until they leave the family home (usually regarded as 18) where upon they would have to matriculate arms from the father usually in the Scottish system with a bordure if they wished to use Scottish Arms, The only ones allowed to use the armigers arms without cadency but usually in a lozenge or oval is the armigers Wife and daughters.

Hi John--

In broad terms I would be in general agreement with what you've said-- you will note that I specifically didn't frame my comments in terms of the practices of the Scottish Office of Arms. That said, I would find it interesting to know when the custom referred to of using "cadency marks" for the generations in waiting was adopted? I don't recall Gayre of Gayre and Nigg making any reference to it in his Heraldic Cadency.

Given that under Scots Law an armiger may leave his undifferenced arms to whomsoever he pleases, within the terms of the desintation set forth in the letters patent of the original grant, it would seem to me that the assigning of lables, cadency marks, etc., to minor children is more "kitchen table heraldry" than the legal practice of the Lyon Court.

As I understand it since minor children do not (generally) have the same legal rights as those who enjoy their majority (for example entering into contracts or owning property without parental consent), I can see no reason for them to have-- or need-- any heraldic status at all during the lifetime of their armigerous parent. If that is the case then there would be no need to use "temporary" cadency marks -- wee Wullie could just as well mark his school trunk with his father's crest (technically the trunk is probably his father's property, "on loan") as paint a "temporary" COA on it.

As soon as Lord Lyon Blair's replacement is announced I'll have to ask.

Yes the siblings can if they wish apply for differenced arms of their maternal fathers usually, as I said previous, in a bordure. This does not apply to the Eldest Son as he inherits his father arms on his death, An eldest daughter can also inherit the fathers arms, however if she marries and adopts her husbands name she is no longer entitled, as she is no longer of the name. Ok if ther husband changes his name to hers or she keeps her own name in the marriage.

The Eldest Son only inherits by default. The Armiger may designate his successor in the undifferenced arms so long as that designated recipient is someone who falls within the "destination of arms" clause in the original grant. An example of this would be twin boys, the elder of whom is severely brain damaged at birth. In the specific case I'm thinking of, the elder twin was passed over and the undifferenced arms (along with the clan chiefship) were vested in the younger twin.

As regards daughters, well this is somewhat up in the air at the moment. Under EU law the first born child, if female, may have a substantive claim to the undifferenced arms unless her father chooses to designate a different successor. Even if that happens, the daughter could still sue for posession claiming that the parental decision was based on gender bias.

Yes correct, but the point I was trying to make was the chief wears his crest as is, or in a plain circle. All others wear it in a strap and buckle to show allegiance to the chief....yes it is up to the chief who he wears the crest in a strap and buckle and who does not its his crest. See - Lyon Court Leaflet No2

Absolutely bang on about the Chief's crest and clansmans badges, although this is a rather recent invention by the late Lord Lyon, Sir Thomas Innes of Learney. Before "Sir Tam" codified much of what we now take for gospel in his mega-tome The Clans Septs and Regiments of the Scottish Highlands Chiefs and Chieftains regularly displayed their crests within the strap and buckle, feathers and all.

BTW-- I think your arms are quite smart. Am I correct in guessing that the heraldic painter is Romilly Squire?

Yours, Aye--
Rathdown

PS: what's the date on the Rachane letters patent? Is he one of Blair's "doomsday barons"?

[Sketraw]

Scott, I think in general we are batting with the same 'bat and ball' here, some slight variance of views but in general the same.

No I did the electronic rendition myself, getting Romilly to put brush to paper nowadays is tuff which is a shame as he is a wonderful heraldic artist. I do hope George Way of Plean is the next LL but we will have to wait and see.

The one painting of my arms I have had done was by Romanian heraldic artist Tudor Tiron Click Here for Large Image

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

John, I think we all have to keep our fingers crossed re: the next Lyon... When I was in the Office of Arms in Dublin Romilly did all of my important clients-- he is without a doubt one of the top ten heraldic painters on the planet. When you get to that level it comes down to a matter of style; all of them are well beyond first rate.

Tudor Tiron really pulled out the stops! I've always had a weak spot for library paintings and hope you've given this pride of place in your home. (Mine's in the downstairs loo...)

I note your Constantinian decoration, something us Scots "piskies" aren't likely to obtain. Might I ask (without prejudice) which obedience?

[Sketraw]

Well I am 'CofS' Scott, I was one of two Scots Armigers (non RC) to receive the decoration from The Sacred Military Constantinian Order of St George(Spain not Castro). http://www.constantinianorder.org

There has only been about 12 non RC's awarded the order in the past 40 plus years so it was kind of special to get. It was thought the Royal Commission of Italy headed by the Duke Don Diego de Vargas Machuca and the grant was signed by the Infante of Spain.

The award is 'Knight Jure Sanguinis'

Anyway its kind of nice to have and was unexpected.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Cool. Another nugget of information for my chivalric files.

[sharpdressedscot]

So, you can't wear the clan badges or these so called "coat of arms"??

maybe I'm reading the text wrong ,but that's what I'm getting here.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

So, you can't wear the clan badges or these so called "coat of arms"??

maybe I'm reading the text wrong ,but that's what I'm getting here.

The clansman's badge (that buckle and strap pin with a motto on it and some sort of devise in the centre that most people attach to the side of their bonnet) is the distinctive mark of an individual who professes to be a follower of a particular Clan Chief. Ideally, if you wear a clansman's badge, you should be a member of that clan's society or association.

Now this is one of those "rules" that is often more honoured in the breach than the keeping, and it is doubtful that the Chief of Clan MacX would complain too much about you sporting the badge of one of his clansman on your bonnet if you weren't a card-carrying member of the Clan MacX Society. Legally he could, but in practice I doubt very much he'd be bothered.

Now the clansman's badge is not the same thing as a coat of arms. The coat of arms is the design painted on a shield-- Sketraw's avatar is an excellent example of a coat of arms. A coat of arms is personal property and no one other than John Duncan of Sketraw may use or display his coat of arms without his explicit permission. The same applies to the coat of arms of the Chief of Clan MacX-- it belongs exclusively to the Chief, and no one can use or display his arms without his explicit permission.

So, if you wear a clansman's badge, in effect, what you are saying is "I am a follower of the Chief of my clan".

Now this opens up the question "WHO IS A CLANSMAN?"... and I think that calls for a new thread, so I'll start one.

[Sketraw]

I think part of the problem here is that some Clan Societies confuse the issue here by saying, this is the "COA of Clan X" rather than this is the COA of the "Chief of Clan X".

Terminology is also a big factor in this confusion perpetuated by 'Bucket Shop' Heraldry (no doubt mentioned before) in the use of the word 'Crest' or 'Crest of X' to mean the whole Achievment of arms (Coat of Arms) the Crest, Helm, Mantling and Shield combined.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

John, how excellent of you to provide a diagram of the full achievement of an armiger! Hopefully this will go some way in clearing up the confusion caused by the correct/incorrect usage of heraldic terms when referring to the bits and bobs that combine to make up the heraldic achievement of an individual.

Perhaps you could scan in examples of a Chief's badge, an Armiger's badge, and a Clansman's badge for those folks who may not be familiar with them?

Scott

[Sketraw]

Crest Badges

A note on the wearing of feathers, HM Queen is the only one allowed to wear 4 feathers as Chief of Chiefs.