Ponderings of an ancient Scot.

[Dall_Piobaire]

Good thread, and well made point Jock.

The interesting bit is that perhaps it is really all a mountain made of a mole hill.

Don't get me wrong, I wear only the Modern Boyd, or the Ancient Stewart as those are my lines from my mother's side. I might consider the new Ayershire tartan, but again, because of connections. I wear them out of a feeling of pride, and a desire to connect and associate myself that which is part of me. In doing this though, am I actually not mistaken? Modern Boyd was approved in the late 50's. Traditionally and perhaps most accurately, I should wear whatever was being woven at the time by the weaver in the district???
However, we make this great fuss over a thing I think would greatly confuse the original wearer. It seems maybe as though six hundred years from now there will be forums over whether to wear Levi's or lee's, and how and when to wear them.
I mean, we all know about Wilson's and traditions and romanticizing, so nothing need really be repeated there. My point, and perhaps more to the point is, that the kilt has been, and is making those evolutionary changes, just, in a way very slowly.
Whether or not, if ever, it will stop being, primarily,symbolic, rightly or wrongly, not if this forum and the folks here carry on.

JHMO
Scott

[thescot]

First of all, you should wear Wranglers and not Levis or Lees! Rodeo cowboys would shudder!

As to the subject at hand, it seems to me that the national dress of anyone is a very tenuous if not ethereal subject. Should we all refrain from lederhosen, kimonos, or the Greek foustanela or tsolias because we do not live in Germany, Japan, or Greece? And what if we relocate to one of those areas? Can we then qualify? (And I use that term loosely while my tongue is in my cheek.)

This all gets very confusing.

Hmm. Inquiring minds want to know.

This is not intended to offend or inflame, but me thinks thou dost protest too much. Or at least, cogitate a bit more than is required.

It would seem that the whole question of wearing any paritcular mode of dress is often tied to either one's heritage or one's sense of style. I wear a kilt because:
A. I have guid Robertson bluid in my veins
B. I like kilts
C. It brings me into contact with others who share my interests, etc.
D. I should add here that I also wear a Leatherneck tartan kilt for obvious reasons. And my soon-to-be new kilt will be the Ulster tartan because of familial ties.

I think I hit all the salient points.

But as I was reading above, I recalled the movie The Quiet Man with John Wayne in which in at least one scene there is a kid wearing a kilt and balmoral (or tam, I'm not sure which). I think it was in fact a bit part for Patrick Wayne, the Duke's son.

Since that was set in early 20th century, was that somewhat out of place, or had the kilt been somewhat adopted there as well? Or was it the costume director's whimsy? Remember that the movie was not set in Northern Ireland, so I don't think it was a matter of Scots-Irish custom. Maybe Beloit Piper can help us out with this whole Irish Question. (Sounds like a politcal discussion from the 19th century, no?)

[O'Callaghan]

But as I was reading above, I recalled the movie The Quiet Man with John Wayne in which in at least one scene there is a kid wearing a kilt and balmoral (or tam, I'm not sure which). I think it was in fact a bit part for Patrick Wayne, the Duke's son.

Since that was set in early 20th century, was that somewhat out of place, or had the kilt been somewhat adopted there as well? Or was it the costume director's whimsy? Remember that the movie was not set in Northern Ireland, so I don't think it was a matter of Scots-Irish custom. Maybe Beloit Piper can help us out with this whole Irish Question. (Sounds like a politcal discussion from the 19th century, no?)

Not wishing really to open a can of worms, but an Irish kilt in the early 20th century is not an anachronism, with the caveat that it would almost certainly have been either solid green or solid saffron at that time. If it was a tartan kilt, then yes, that would be an anachronism. I'm not sure what type of kilt was shown in that film, though.

As for the tam, if it was a tam and not a caubeen, then it was out of place, period. Glengarries are sometimes worn by Irish pipers, but AFAIK were not in that time period, and tams are Scottish, period. OTOH, a caubeen is virtually the same thing with no tourie.

[O'Callaghan]

In some ways, then, it seems that the adoption of the kilt by Lowland Scots is not that really that far off from the "adoption of the kilt" by Irish kilt-wearers. The kilt was never part of Lowland culture, but it has been adopted nonetheless to signify an identity distinct from the dominant culture group.

Cordially,

David

A point I have been known to make!

[macwilkin]

Not wishing really to open a can of worms, but an Irish kilt in the early 20th century is not an anachronism, with the caveat that it would almost certainly have been either solid green or solid saffron at that time. If it was a tartan kilt, then yes, that would be an anachronism. I'm not sure what type of kilt was shown in that film, though.

As for the tam, if it was a tam and not a caubeen, then it was out of place, period. Glengarries are sometimes worn by Irish pipers, but AFAIK were not in that time period, and tams are Scottish, period. OTOH, a caubeen is virtually the same thing with no tourie.

There were four kilts in the film; two being worn by Patrick and Michael Wayne (the two girls in the scene with Marueen O'Hara are Wayne's daughters), and two kilts worn by the pipers at the horse races. The kilts were solid green, worn without sporrans, and with either Arran Island sweaters and knitted tams.

The movie can be dated to roughly the late 1920s - early 30's, due to the several references to the Anglo-Irish War (nothing really said about the Civil War, though) -- and at that time, there were several pipe bands in Ireland, such as the Youghal Pipe Band, the St. Laurence O'Toole Pipe Band and the Black Raven Pipe Band, all formed before the First World War.

While it would certainly not have been common to see two young boys in kilts, the pipers in the movie certainly could have been from a local pipe band.

T.

[thescot]

There were four kilts in the film; two being worn by Patrick and Michael Wayne (the two girls in the scene with Marueen O'Hara are Wayne's daughters), and two kilts worn by the pipers at the horse races. The kilts were solid green, worn without sporrans, and with either Arran Island sweaters and knitted tams.

The movie can be dated to roughly the late 1920s - early 30's, due to the several references to the Anglo-Irish War (nothing really said about the Civil War, though) -- and at that time, there were several pipe bands in Ireland, such as the Youghal Pipe Band, the St. Laurence O'Toole Pipe Band and the Black Raven Pipe Band, all formed before the First World War.

While it would certainly not have been common to see two young boys in kilts, the pipers in the movie certainly could have been from a local pipe band.

T.

I figured I could draw Todd out with some help on that one. It's been a while since I watched that movie (and I love the movie), but I did remember that one kilt, and I thought there were others.

It seemed like the kilts were just part of the local area and quite natural. Which then led me to wonder just how "new" the wearing of kilts really was in Ireland.

[macwilkin]

I figured I could draw Todd out with some help on that one. It's been a while since I watched that movie (and I love the movie), but I did remember that one kilt, and I thought there were others.

It seemed like the kilts were just part of the local area and quite natural. Which then led me to wonder just how "new" the wearing of kilts really was in Ireland.

Jim -- ask your local library to track down the book The Complete Guide to the Quiet Man by Des McHale, a professor at the University of Cork. He is a member of the Quiet Man Film Club and very knowledgeable about the movie. It is filled with trivia about the film.

T.

[SteveB]

I know the jeans forum of the future will be arguing over Wranglers on the cowpokes, Levis on the gold miners and the Lees on the railroad workers.

Now back to the topic- -
I would like to throw out this live grenade... With the trouser being the "traditional" garment on this side of the salt puddle, the tartan moved from the hip to the chest in the form of plaid flannel shirts. This is still the continuing of a "tartan" history even though it has moved up a bit. The American love of plaid has never diminished, it just moves around a lot. It is interesting that plaid boxer shorts outsell all other colours and designs together.(2004 sales report by the undergarment industry) Based on this sales statistic, it can be assumed that American men like willy to be in contact with tartan. I also think that this use of tartan will last well into the future. So even if it is not on a kilt, there will be tartan.

Just for information, that due to the current style of wearing at a quite low position of the trouser or jean, today's young gent does not match the upper tartan (Plaid flannel shirt) with the lower tartan (Boxer shorts), quite visibly.

Call the Tartan Police!

Slainte

[RockyR]

There were four kilts in the film; two being worn by Patrick and Michael Wayne (the two girls in the scene with Marueen O'Hara are Wayne's daughters), and two kilts worn by the pipers at the horse races. The kilts were solid green, worn without sporrans, and with either Arran Island sweaters and knitted tams.

The movie can be dated to roughly the late 1920s - early 30's, due to the several references to the Anglo-Irish War (nothing really said about the Civil War, though) -- and at that time, there were several pipe bands in Ireland, such as the Youghal Pipe Band, the St. Laurence O'Toole Pipe Band and the Black Raven Pipe Band, all formed before the First World War.

While it would certainly not have been common to see two young boys in kilts, the pipers in the movie certainly could have been from a local pipe band.

T.

Ditto what Cajunscot said. There were's refferences to the Civil War, but there are several refferences to the IRA in the movie and some scenes were cut out b/c the Catholic Church didn't like how the movie portrayed an Irish Priest oweing money for betting (when the 2 IRA men approach the priest in the beginning of the movie... they cut that remainder of that scene).

I personally thought that the solid kilt worn by Wayne's son was solid BLUE, but I could be wrong on that point. The scene where his son is wearing the kilt is the horse race where Maureen O'Hara is sitting on the carraige and there are a few children sitting and standing beside her. Those children are Wayne's.

SNIP>>> This is still the continuing of a "tartan" history even though it has moved up a bit. The American love of plaid has never diminished, it just moves around a lot.

The question is, would they know what TARTAN they're wearing. Unfortunately, when STRICTLY used as a fashion thing, it takes some of the 'mystique' and 'special-ness' (yes, I made up a word) out of wearing a tartan kilt.

I think the mismatched boxers and shirt are the least of our worries.

[macwilkin]

Ditto what Cajunscot said. There were's refferences to the Civil War, but there are several refferences to the IRA in the movie and some scenes were cut out b/c the Catholic Church didn't like how the movie portrayed an Irish Priest oweing money for betting (when the 2 IRA men approach the priest in the beginning of the movie... they cut that remainder of that scene).

Ford was also forced to remove one word by Herbert J. Yates which referred to the Anglo-Irish troubles; at the reception after Sean and Mary Kate were married, Hugh Forbes, the ex-IRA commandant, offers the toast about living in "peace and...freedom". The little pause is not Forbes (played by O'Hara's brother Charles Fitzsimmons) getting choked up at the moment, but where the word "national" originally was.

T.