The Craftsman versus the Industrial Complex

[Drac]

Isn't there places for both the quality hand made items and places for factory?

I am "craftsman" with knives. I have been in the custom field of knives for over ten years and learning from, in some cases masters, others with decades of experience.

I have many times gotten a person coming up to me and say they "heard you make knives." They ask me how much for a knife. Not sure how much knives are like shoes but "how much" is not an easy answer. To many varyables. When it comes down to the idea that a basic hunter, from me, runs $200US+, 90% of the time I get the "But I can get one from Walmart (Basspro, ect) for 50 bucks!!!!"

There are no rich knife makers. Even the top "gods" of the knife world can only be discribed as well off. So I can sympithise with your view of a loss.

Here comes the but...

You bring up the lose of appreciation of quality from a century or more ago. In the knife field there have always been cheap knives. The only differance was they were made at home or by a friend/hobbist. One of the most famous knives in US history, the bowie knife, was from the two surviving discriptions nothing more than an ugly banged out piece of steel. Only the rich could afford the best quality. Actually today there are more people who are in positions, in this country, to afford quality custom pieces.

From what little I know of the shoes it is the same. 200 years ago how many people wore quality shoes? How many people wore shoes everyday all day? Aren't the ghillies decendant from nothing more than leather wrapped around the foot and laced up?

Also how many people need that level of shoe/knife? I wear "dress" a lot more than most the people I know. Most of my co-worker will only wear dress shoes a couple times in their lives. Rest of the time it's athletic shoes. Since it is jeans an tees at our work a $1500 pair of shoes is a bit of an overkill.

I would also ask what it wrong with having outfits appropriate to the event? I have a nice, hand stitched Scottish mill woven kilt. I also have a PV. I wear the hand stiched one when I am formal and even semi sometimes but I would cringe at watching the guys participating in Scottish games in a $700 kilt. It would be like doing a marathon in an Armani. Same when I hanging out or just shopping. When I'm kilted I go with a kilt of different levels. If it is a jeans kind of thing than PV or a modern style. While a well made tux could last for everyday wear it is out of place.

These fields are hardly limited to craftsmen. Look at the plight of the famliy farm vs the industrial farm. As a foodie of a high level I would love to say I cook with only locally grow in season foods. That I get my meat from grass feed cows where the farmer names the cows instead of numbers them. It is not a realistic life for me.

Jim

[KiltedKnome]

I would suggest that we need to redefine craftsman in a modern age. There are those who are better at making things with sewing machines (read as 'technology') than those who sew by hand. Perhaps "tecraftsman"? People who are the best in their field with the aid of technology.

I would argue that "craftsmanship" does not exclude the use of technology and therefore a new term "tecraftsman" is not necessary. The craftsman uses the tools right for the job, be it a human-powered one or an electronic-one controlled by the human. So a sewing machine under the control of a craftsman is simply another tool.

[RockyR]

Phil brings up a good point about 'rose tinted glasses' and only remembering the 'good old days'. When I look back at old girlfriends, I can fondly remember them. Then I think harder and say to myself 'there must have been a reason we broke up'. Then it hits me... all the argueing, cheating, weird familys, personal oddities, etc.

SNIP...

But what are the alternatives?

Shoeless working class. Dirty masses. 1 or MAYBE 2 shirts and pairs of pants (or kilts) for each person. Working in the facroty 10 - 12 hours a day with no windows and no fire escapes. Paid in company script to buy things at the company store.

Ahhh... memories.

(Hmm... maybe Mac and Natalie want to be paid in "USA Kilts Bucks" and earn credits toward a kilt and Ramen Noodles).

I would argue that "craftsmanship" does not exclude the use of technology and therefore a new term "tecraftsman" is not necessary. The craftsman uses the tools right for the job, be it a human-powered one or an electronic-one controlled by the human. So a sewing machine under the control of a craftsman is simply another tool.

Good point. Craftsmen/women have always used 'the right tool for the right job'. If a sewing machine or industrial serger or blind hem machine are the right tools, then that's what should be used.

[Drac]

I would argue that "craftsmanship" does not exclude the use of technology and therefore a new term "tecraftsman" is not necessary. The craftsman uses the tools right for the job, be it a human-powered one or an electronic-one controlled by the human. So a sewing machine under the control of a craftsman is simply another tool.

In the custom knife field there are people who will say that if a person doesn't make every part in their shop it isn't custom, such as people like me who buy damascus. It goes all the way down to people who literally smelt their own steel

Jim

[KiltedKnome]

In the custom knife field there are people who will say that if a person doesn't make every part in their shop it isn't custom, such as people like me who buy damascus. It goes all the way down to people who literally smelt their own steel

Jim

Years ago I learned how to weave from a wonderful family in North Carolina. Both Peter and Helga came from a tradition of European weavers and spinners and told me how they raised their own sheep, did the shearing themselves, carded and spun the wool, dyed and then wove it. Peter even built the spinning wheels and the looms, using wood from maple trees on land they owned in New England. I have one of his looms, and I cherish it.

I have also met wonderful weavers who buy the wool already dyed, and spin it on wheels they have purchased, and then weave it on looms they have purchased.

Even within the realm of craftmen there are variations of involvement in the total process. Most kiltmakers don't spin and weave their own tartan, be they making the kilt using needle and thread or a human-controlled sewing machine. The reflection of the craftman is, in my opinion, in the care and attention given to the final product (for that craftsman).

[RockyR]

Years ago I learned how to weave from a wonderful family in North Carolina. Both Peter and Helga came from a tradition of European weavers and spinners and told me how they raised their own sheep, did the shearing themselves, carded and spun the wool, dyed and then wove it. Peter even built the spinning wheels and the looms, using wood from maple trees on land they owned in New England. I have one of his looms, and I cherish it.

But did they plant the trees they used or did they use trees that were already growing? Pfft.... cheaters. Using readily available wood.

[DWFII]

How are the 'old ways' working out?

Hard to say...they seem to be dismissed and supplanted by an absolute fixation with "all things bright and beautiful."

You keep referring to the "brave new world". Remember that EVERYTHING was invented / discovered at some point... even fire. Your 'old ways' were once new ways.

True and I'm not against new things or even progress...I use a computer, drive a car, etc., etc.. But we don't think through the cost...the real cost...of progress and technology. For example, have you given any thought to the fact that Poly-viscose is petro-chemical based? (I don't know if you are using PV.. For the purposes of this discussion, I really don't want to know...I'm just offering an example)
Is the price of environmental degradation? health defects, etc., factored into the price of a PV kilt?

And that doesn't say anything about the alienation, from each other from our material environment, that is created by slogging through a day in an oppressive environment doing work that you have no vested interest in.

Und so weiter.

I would suggest that we need to redefine craftsman in a modern age. There are those who are better at making things with sewing machines (read as 'technology') than those who sew by hand. I've seen machine sewn kilts that rival the best hand sewn kilts. I've also seen very POOR examples of handsewn kilts sewn by 'professionals'.

My idea of Craftsmen and Craftsmanship never excluded a judicious use of machines. Machines are just elaborate tools. I use sewing machines in my business.

I am sure at least one of my kilts is machine sewn.

[DWFII]

I would argue that "craftsmanship" does not exclude the use of technology and therefore a new term "tecraftsman" is not necessary. The craftsman uses the tools right for the job, be it a human-powered one or an electronic-one controlled by the human. So a sewing machine under the control of a craftsman is simply another tool.

***

The problem with factories...and the factory mentality is not the machines...machines are just elaborate tools.

Rather it is the mentality that makes profit and efficiency job one...and in the process comes to regard human beings as just a rather squishy machine. And one that goes obsolete far too quickly and requires too much maintenance.

[DWFII]

But did they plant the trees they used or did they use trees that were already growing? Pfft.... cheaters. Using readily available wood.

Oh, come on...that's just facetious, you know it is. It's sophistry. I am laughing but it's not really a valid objection is it?

[RockyR]

Hard to say...they seem to be dismissed and supplanted by an absolute fixation with "all things bright and beautiful."

If they're being replaced at the alarming speed you indicate, then it shouldn't be hard to say (unless by 'hard to say' you mean 'I don't want to say it'). If they are dismissed and supplanted, then the answer is "not working out well at all".

True and I'm not against new things or even progress...I use a computer, drive a car, etc., etc.. But we don't think through the cost...the real cost...of progress and technology. For example, have you given any thought to the fact that Poly-viscose is petro-chemical based? (I don't know if you are using PV.. For the purposes of this discussion, I really don't want to know...I'm just offering an example)
Is the price of environmental degradation? health defects, etc., factored into the price of a PV kilt?

And that doesn't say anything about the alienation, from each other from our material environment, that is created by slogging through a day in an oppressive environment doing work that you have no vested interest in.

Every 'time period' had crisis in the past and present. To say that 'it's worse now than ever' to me is a cop out. I'm sure if you would have asked people in the 1700's if they'd like to purchase a pair of mass produced shoes of 'average - poor quality' for (the time's equvalent of) $100 or a custom made pair for $1000, MOST people would have answered the former. Cheap shoes are better than no shoes.

Based on yuor argument, I would hope that you are driving an electric car on non rubber tires (is there such a thing)? I also hope you only eat locally grown food, wear locally woven / knitted / tailored clothing (nothing from China or Taiwan), and have solar panels on your home. Those in glass houses...

Again, I say that the 'rosey tint of elapsed time' makes us fondly remember the past... at least more fondly than those who lived it.