Clan badges vs family crests??

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

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Hi Scot, No, all siblings a re not entitled to display their fathers arms undifferented, the heir apparent has to display a three point label on the arms to show he is the heir apparent. All other male siblings use temporary cadency marks crescent, star, martlet etc 2nd 3rd and 4th sons for example until they leave the family home (usually regarded as 18) where upon they would have to matriculate arms from the father usually in the Scottish system with a bordure if they wished to use Scottish Arms, The only ones allowed to use the armigers arms without cadency but usually in a lozenge or oval is the armigers Wife and daughters.

Hi John--

In broad terms I would be in general agreement with what you've said-- you will note that I specifically didn't frame my comments in terms of the practices of the Scottish Office of Arms. That said, I would find it interesting to know when the custom referred to of using "cadency marks" for the generations in waiting was adopted? I don't recall Gayre of Gayre and Nigg making any reference to it in his Heraldic Cadency.

Given that under Scots Law an armiger may leave his undifferenced arms to whomsoever he pleases, within the terms of the desintation set forth in the letters patent of the original grant, it would seem to me that the assigning of lables, cadency marks, etc., to minor children is more "kitchen table heraldry" than the legal practice of the Lyon Court.

As I understand it since minor children do not (generally) have the same legal rights as those who enjoy their majority (for example entering into contracts or owning property without parental consent), I can see no reason for them to have-- or need-- any heraldic status at all during the lifetime of their armigerous parent. If that is the case then there would be no need to use "temporary" cadency marks -- wee Wullie could just as well mark his school trunk with his father's crest (technically the trunk is probably his father's property, "on loan") as paint a "temporary" COA on it.

As soon as Lord Lyon Blair's replacement is announced I'll have to ask.

Yes the siblings can if they wish apply for differenced arms of their maternal fathers usually, as I said previous, in a bordure. This does not apply to the Eldest Son as he inherits his father arms on his death, An eldest daughter can also inherit the fathers arms, however if she marries and adopts her husbands name she is no longer entitled, as she is no longer of the name. Ok if ther husband changes his name to hers or she keeps her own name in the marriage.

The Eldest Son only inherits by default. The Armiger may designate his successor in the undifferenced arms so long as that designated recipient is someone who falls within the "destination of arms" clause in the original grant. An example of this would be twin boys, the elder of whom is severely brain damaged at birth. In the specific case I'm thinking of, the elder twin was passed over and the undifferenced arms (along with the clan chiefship) were vested in the younger twin.

As regards daughters, well this is somewhat up in the air at the moment. Under EU law the first born child, if female, may have a substantive claim to the undifferenced arms unless her father chooses to designate a different successor. Even if that happens, the daughter could still sue for posession claiming that the parental decision was based on gender bias.

Yes correct, but the point I was trying to make was the chief wears his crest as is, or in a plain circle. All others wear it in a strap and buckle to show allegiance to the chief....yes it is up to the chief who he wears the crest in a strap and buckle and who does not its his crest. See - Lyon Court Leaflet No2

Absolutely bang on about the Chief's crest and clansmans badges, although this is a rather recent invention by the late Lord Lyon, Sir Thomas Innes of Learney. Before "Sir Tam" codified much of what we now take for gospel in his mega-tome The Clans Septs and Regiments of the Scottish Highlands Chiefs and Chieftains regularly displayed their crests within the strap and buckle, feathers and all.

BTW-- I think your arms are quite smart. Am I correct in guessing that the heraldic painter is Romilly Squire?

Yours, Aye--
Rathdown

PS: what's the date on the Rachane letters patent? Is he one of Blair's "doomsday barons"?