The Kilt Kops

[Father Bill]

Thanks for your post Steve.
To be honest, I have not visited the forum very much the last couple of months due to the "if you don't feel the same way wear a kilt the "proper" way" comments that seem to pop up in almost every thread.
Glad to see there are others who find such comments tiresome and possibly devisive to the over all goals of the forum.

Bingo!

[Father Bill]

Further to my "bingo" above, I'm in a grumpy enough mood right now to tell the truth and say what's on my mind without being diplomatic or pastoral, so here it comes; hold onto your pith helmet!

I'm more than just a bit annoyed, hurt, and disgusted to see the frequently implied message that I should never wear a kilt. No it isn't a "heritage thing" for me. No, I'm not a highlander. But I have studied, loved, and written about it for a lifetime. Now that I'm ordained I bought a clergy tartan kilt. If somebody doesn't like that, I'll gladly stuff it down their throats, all nine yards (I'm fat) plus buckles.

I've had it with the frequent implication that I'm second class here. This is a forum for folks who RIGHTLY OR WRONGLY love owning and wearing kilts. I wear it respectfully. I wear it infrequently. I wear it traditionally. I wear it knowledgeably, which is probably more than many who have the self-granted "right" to wear it can do (see some other threads) but by Jimminy, I'm going to wear it, and this forum is not someplace to be sneered at for that. It's too good a forum to go down the tubes based on self-righteous nose-in-the-air self-granted superiority. Grow up and stop being hurtful!

Told you I was grumpy today!

[Downunder Kilt]

Father Bill I know your grumpy today. Please have a dram to two. Not good to get the old blood pressure as high as it obviously is. You just keep on wearing your kilt and let no man tell you otherwise. Cheers

[DWFII]

I say this in the almost desperate hope that some form of collegiality really is extant on this forum, because I have a somewhat different view of things...

A forum is a place for discussion. For expressing opinions...and often divergent opinions.

If divergent opinions cannot be expressed then what is the purpose except to stroke each others' egos?

It seems to me...just for instance...that expressing the opinion that white hose looks tawdry with a kilt (if only because it is so associated with rental kits) is not only appropriate on a forum such as this (if not here, where?) but innocent when compared to calling people names and casting them as villains for expressing that opinion.

It's just an opinion, for goodness sake. It's neither written in stone nor in the legal code. Those that feel threatened by divergent opinions need to stay home and dern sure never wear a kilt of any kind in any circumstance.

But calling people names is another thing altogether.

Again, I say...it is divisive. It is vilification. It is vitriol. It is neither "civil" nor is it "respectful."

And in another sense, from my perspective, it is also irresponsible.

Yet the usage of such a pejorative as "Kilt Kop" (or any variation) is so rampant on this forum as to suggest it is sanctioned behaviour.

In my time (nearly four years as a member) I have never seen the moderators step in and even attempt to curtail or caution a member for what in any other venue would be recognized as an outright ad hominem attack.

I know I am not alone in feeling this way but I also know that this is not a popular point of view here.

"Ce la vie...say the old folks, it goes to show you never can tell."

[davidlpope]

A forum is a place for discussion. For expressing opinions...and often divergent opinions.

If divergent opinions cannot be expressed then what is the purpose except to stroke each others' egos?

I find that I think in the same way in most contexts. If someone posts a photo of themselves and asks the members of the forum for critique it seems disingenuous to type the old standby: "Nice kilt, you wear it well!" if I believe the kilt is neither nice nor worn well.

If the underlying concern is that opinions are stated too "forcefully" and come off as being proscriptive, I guess we could preface all such statements with "IMHO" or with some circuitous disclaimer, such as "I don't like to wear my kilts with the pleats in the front, but...", though this seems to be form over substance. I fear that some simply don't want to hear opinions that they disagree with when the subject is kilt-wearing.

One of the things I prize about XMarks is that a majority of the members here make courteous, well-informed, insightful, and well-reasoned points on a wide range of interesting kilt-related topics. I may not agree with these assertions, but I value their addition to the public discourse. I'd hate for constructive discussion to be lost in the name of avoiding honest disagreement.

Cordially,

David

[Cowher]

I speak for myself here but I don't think it's about not giving a differing opinion. Its about respect and politeness.

DWFII I know you are passionate about footwear so forgive me for using you in my example.

You invite a fellow to your home. He arrives and proudly pops off his shoe and hands it to you and says with a grin "this is THE BEST shoe in the world!! The quality is second to none!".
You look at the shoe and it is handsome and pull of a look of quality quite well but you can clearly see they are basically cardboard. YOU know they took about $3 to make and are not what the man said they are.

What do you say? Do you stroke his ego to avoid being rude? Do you berate the man and tell him his shoe is trash? Or do you slowly take a breath and tell him "it is a fine looking shoe but look here" you pull out the sole to show the edges of the materials. "this is not the highest quality materials and the shoe looks to be machine made." you reach for a pair of shoes you made and show him the quality of the leather and the time and expertise you have put into them.

The first response would leave the fellow uneducated and would deminish your integrity.
Let's say in response 2 and 3 the fellow gets angry calls you a **** and storm off to his car.

Response two was a loss because the man left justifiably angry.

Response three educated the man with his feeling in mind. He acted poorly and he acted with pride but he learned something. Years down the road when he picks up a $400 pair of "leather" shoes and pops out the sole to discover the poor quality and quickly puts them back deciding to save more and go for REAL quality. You can take heart in knowing that you educated him and he may educate some one else.

I have one of my favorite scriptures quotes in my signature. I have it here because I want people to apply it to the way I express my views on this forum. I might have tang but what good would I be if I had none? I would be worthless. But I also don't have to be acid that melts skin.

I am guilty of offending people on this forum. I have the demerits to prove it. But I try to speak with respect.

I have a great appreciation for many of our members because I have learned much from you all. Some of you are JockScot, Matt Newsome, Ryan Ross, Steve Ashton, nighthawk, Robert Amyot, Panache, DWFII, FatherBill and many many others. Not all of these men always speak gracefully or nicely. But they all have spoken kindly and with respect and that's why we think and speak of them highly. We forget the negative because of the positive.

Speak freely my kilted friends! But speak with kindness and respect so we can teach those with out knowledge.

[CDNSushi]

"I don't care if you're black, white, straight, bisexual, gay, lesbian, short, tall, fat, skinny, rich or poor. If you're nice to me, I'll be nice to you. Simple as that."

— Eminem

The Golden Rules goes a long ways... And transcends both culture and religion.

[Cowher]

"I don't care if you're black, white, straight, bisexual, gay, lesbian, short, tall, fat, skinny, rich or poor. If you're nice to me, I'll be nice to you. Simple as that."

— Eminem

The Golden Rules goes a long ways... And transcends both culture and religion.

I LOVE that you quoted Eminem.

[sevenoaks]

DWFII
"In my time (nearly four years as a member) I have never seen the moderators step in and even attempt to curtail or caution a member for what in any other venue would be recognized as an outright ad hominem attack."
Just FYI DWFII I have belonged to this form for only a few months now. Before that time I wandered unguided through the wast lands of wearing a kilt many years previous to this.

I have learned so much from this forum and have always tried to be non confrontational. I know that we can not see the facial expressions or the general body language of the person we are speaking to. That is a downfall of the written word, not only in a forum but also on email. It is very easy to criticize another when we are not in there presence. We write and try to make ourselves clear but sometimes others take it in the wrong way. Most of use would never speak as sharply to anothe,r unless it was called for, if we were talking face to face.
Believe me when I say that the Moderators of this site are very dedicated. I have made comments on here and have received an email warning saying that I have been reported regarding a comment I had made in a post. The Staff gave me the opportunity to ex-plane myself and had I not done so I would have been Highlighted" as a member who needed to be looked at veted before any posts I made after this. I was treated with respect and I have to thank the Executive for there fairness.
I was not centered publicly and they listened to what I had to say regarding intentions of my post.
I think they do an excellent job in controlling this forum and applaud there genuine interest in each and every member that are part of XMarksthescott.

[flyrod6057]

In the spirit of this thread, please allow me to reference my experience as a "biker."

There was a saying: "It doesn't matter what you ride, as long as you ride." This reflected the idea that the freedom of two wheels on the road transcended the make and model of one's chariot.

I would propose a similar mantra in the same spirit:

"It doesn't matter HOW you kilt, as long as you kilt!"

Don't sweat the 'purists' or the haters. If you feel the need to wrap a kilt about your self, then please do! Enjoy the freedom, and let the haters get their blood pressure up.

(This reminds me of the story related to me by the proprietors of Utilikilts in Seattle. Seems an emotionally wounded Scot felt the need to berate the UK folks for 'degrading' the kilt by daring to sell their interpretation of the warrior's garment. Surprisingly, they didn't close their doors and go out of business; they continued selling their awesome products so I could post here, tonight, girded in my UK survival while I await the return of my MacLean hunting 13oz traditional wool badass kilt from being altered.)

Huzzah!