Dress Codes

[CMcG]

Gosh so many answers to give, so please forgive me if I miss a few first time around!

<snip>

Thanks for the answers Jock, but you did miss a couple

Yes, I accept that a Scot of Pakistani extraction(for example) might wish to celebrate his ancestry by dressing up in his ancestors styled attire.

No, I would not expect him to call his ancestors attire "his national attire".

Would this hypothetical Scot of Pakistani extraction be welcome to wear the kilt at Jock Scot's equally hypothetical National Attire Party? He is, after all, a Scot and he could get something done up in the Singh tartan like the chap bellow, though maybe he should leave the claymore at home...



http://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/tar....aspx?ref=3800

<snip>
Yes, I do consider myself as British-------but very much from the Scottish part! I also accept that the young Scots of today would almost certainly regard themselves as Scots first rather than British.

What about our hypothetical expat Scot invitee to Jock's National Attire Party? Let's imagine Jock's brother was born and lived his whole life in the Highlands, but then decided to take up American citizenship in order to retire in Florida. Would he be excluded from wearing the kilt at this event? What if he was still British but decided to move to Wales?

<snip>
There is, of course, a simple solution available to all and that is to relocate to Scotland, preferably somewhere in the Highlands (Jock will clarify just exactly where), obtain citizenship of the UK of course and then enjoy untrammelled kilt-wearing.

Genius! As soon as I graduate, I'll look for a post at a Scottish university and apply for British citizenship, all so that I can wear the kilt as national attire without question

[McClef]

If the event is outside of Scotland then he might be based upon what Jock has written about himself and the kilt when outside of Scotland.

And never mind leaving the Claymore at home, that blue sporran would be a better candidate!

[Tobus]

There is, of course, a simple solution available to all and that is to relocate to Scotland, preferably somewhere in the Highlands (Jock will clarify just exactly where), obtain citizenship of the UK of course and then enjoy untrammelled kilt-wearing.

Stepping back for a second and looking at this objectively, it seems a tad backwards to suggest that the wearing of the kilt is more related to national citizenship than heritage, family lineage, or culture. Let's compare a chap who is descended from 10 generations of MacPhersons, for example, who was born in Scotland but emigrated to Canada within the last 6 months, to another chap who was born in Pakistan and emigrated to Scotland within the last 6 months.

Going strictly by national citizenship, I can see how the Pakistani is entitled to wear the kilt as his brand-new "national attire" where the ex-pat Scot is not. But does it really make any sense? If I were to invite the ex-pat Scot to a party and ask him to wear his national attire, I would be expecting him to wear a kilt, regardless of what his passport says. And likewise, if I invited the Pakistani to a party and asked him to wear his national attire, I would expect him to show up wearing the garb of his homeland, which fits his language, identity, religion, etc.

This all seems a little crazy, tying the definition of national attire to citizenship, without any other qualification such as culture or lineage. I guess what I'm saying is that the very concept of "national attire" is outdated or inadequate, and makes no provision for immigration, expatriation, etc.

With that said, though, I'd love to emigrate to Scotland. But your government has made it virtually impossible for someone in my position to do so.

[Jock Scot]

Alright, I do not know the "pedigree" of the gentleman wearing the turban in your picture example, so my apologies to him, but I take your point.

As far as I am concerned, if he was born in Scotland and is a fully paid up member of the community----as many are-----then he would be more than welcome to wear the kilt to my "national attire party".

In passing, we have two long time Polish residents in this part of the world who on occasion wear the kilt and that is happily accepted by the locals. However I am quite sure that these two gentlemen would never claim the kilt as their National Attire and should they come to "the NA party" ,I am quite sure they would wear a dinner jacket(the party would be a black tie affair), or appropriate Polish attire..

Following the same train of thought, if my brother moved to America(for example) and became a citizen there, I would prefer that he would not wear the kilt, but as he is my brother I might cut him a wee tad of slack! However, in all seriousness, I would not expect his American children, my nephews and nieces, to wear the kilt to my "National Attire party". As they are family, I would have no hesitation in informing them that "it is very bad form", and is upsetting their uncle a tad -------then I would arrange to take them fishing!

[Phil]

Would this hypothetical Scot of Pakistani extraction be welcome to wear the kilt at Jock Scot's equally hypothetical National Attire Party? He is, after all, a Scot and he could get something done up in the Singh tartan like the chap bellow, though maybe he should leave the claymore at home...

I think that you should take more care to identify a person's nationality and perhaps this explains the whole premise of this thread. The gentleman pictured is dressed as a Sikh - a quite distinct ethnic group from Pakistanis - you really should try to get it right!

What about our hypothetical expat Scot invitee to Jock's National Attire Party? Let's imagine Jock's brother was born and lived his whole life in the Highlands, but then decided to take up American citizenship in order to retire in Florida. Would he be excluded from wearing the kilt at this event? What if he was still British but decided to move to Wales?

If he assumed American citizenship (not an easy task I believe) then he would be American, not Scottish. He might wear a kilt in private as a way of overcoming the dreadful pangs of homesickness which would most certainly overwhelm him after re-locating to the home of Mickey Mouse et al.
Moving to Wales would pose less of a problem in that he would remain a UK citizen and would be amongst fellow people with a strong celtic background and culture.

Genius! As soon as I graduate, I'll look for a post at a Scottish university and apply for British citizenship, all so that I can wear the kilt as national attire without question

We shall look forward to welcoming you into the fold as a true Scotsman.

[rondo]

I wasn't going to respond to this thread but then...

This reminds me of a discussion I had with a Texan a few years ago. He seemed to be under the impression that Texas honored the USA by permitting itself to join the USA. That Texas was the true home of the cowboy, that Texas was responsible for the best Mexican food, that NASA owed its existence to Texas, Texas invented cotton etc... His attitude was Texas first and always for Texans. [And I mean no offense to Texans or Texas I lived there for several years.]

So...if I'm reading this correctly [and I admit I may not be]....A Scot is a citizen of the UK just as a Texan is a citizen of the USA. But the kilt belongs to Scots [specifically Highlanders] just as cowboy hats and big shinny buckles and pointy toe boots belong to Texans. So, no one but a Highland Scot should ever wear a kilt and no one but a Texan should ever wear cowboy clothing. And only folks from San Francisco should wear Levi's [that's where they originated] and only Americans should wear sneakers....only African Americans can enjoy Hip Hop...only Japanese can wear kimonos, eat sushi.... etc.

Okay, I think we can all see where this reasoning leads. I, for one, reject it. I sometimes wear a kilt, sometimes a cowboy hat, Levi's and boots and a variety of other kinds of clothing. I eat a variety of ethnic foods, listen to a wide range of music. In short, I am a complex individual. I'm going to wear the clothing I wish to wear. I don't claim to be a British citizen, a Scot, a Texan, or Japanese.

They are clothes people. Clothes. I feel like too many over-think this here. As long as the level of formality is consistent with the affair in question... let it go.

Rondo

[rondo]

There is, of course, a simple solution available to all and that is to relocate to Scotland, preferably somewhere in the Highlands (Jock will clarify just exactly where), obtain citizenship of the UK of course and then enjoy untrammelled kilt-wearing.

It isn't that easy Phil...I've looked into it.

Rondo

[CMcG]

I think that you should take more care to identify a person's nationality and perhaps this explains the whole premise of this thread. The gentleman pictured is dressed as a Sikh - a quite distinct ethnic group from Pakistanis - you really should try to get it right!

<snip>

I believe Sikhism is both a religion and an ethnicity, but not a category of citizenship. Sikhs typically come from Punjab, which spans across India and Pakistan. And yes, this exactly typifies the problem of identifying nationality and how people use that word to mean both citizenship and ethnicity!

]
<snip>

We shall look forward to welcoming you into the fold as a true Scotsman.

So...if I'm reading this correctly [and I admit I may not be]....A Scot is a citizen of the UK just as a Texan is a citizen of the USA. But the kilt belongs to Scots [specifically Highlanders] just as cowboy hats and big shinny buckles and pointy toe boots belong to Texans. So, no one but a Highland Scot should ever wear a kilt and no one but a Texan should ever wear cowboy clothing. And only folks from San Francisco should wear Levi's [that's where they originated] and only Americans should wear sneakers....only African Americans can enjoy Hip Hop...only Japanese can wear kimonos, eat sushi.... etc.

Okay, I think we can all see where this reasoning leads. I, for one, reject it. I sometimes wear a kilt, sometimes a cowboy hat, Levi's and boots and a variety of other kinds of clothing. I eat a variety of ethnic foods, listen to a wide range of music. In short, I am a complex individual. I'm going to wear the clothing I wish to wear. I don't claim to be a British citizen, a Scot, a Texan, or Japanese.

I think you are conflating this discussion of dress codes with a broader issue of general kilt entitlement. Even Jock Scot seems to accept that non-Scottish citizens like to wear the kilt sometimes, and for a variety of reasons. The debate is about wearing the kilt to an event that calls specifically for "national attire."

[rondo]

I think you are conflating this discussion of dress codes with a broader issue of general kilt entitlement. Even Jock Scot seems to accept that non-Scottish citizens like to wear the kilt sometimes, and for a variety of reasons. The debate is about wearing the kilt to an event that calls specifically for "national attire."

You are quite right...I sort of got sidetracked...sorry.
Rondo

[Jock Scot]

CMcG.

In actual fact my brother does live on the Welsh border, but he is adamant that his kilt and his children's kilts are not to be worn South of the good Scottish city of Perth!