The Kilt's use in Irish Nationalism

[Jock Scot]

Blackrose87.

I am sorry to take issue with you and I hope this does not derail a very sensible discussion.

The British army did not and were not occupying part of your country when you were growing up. Their presence has always been and still is there in NI as a garrison just like Aldershot, or, Tidworth in England. However there certainly were reinforcements drafted in to assist the Civil Administration. An occupation? Most certainly not. I know that it does depend on point of view, but historically those are the facts.

[Blackrose87]

Blackrose87.

I am sorry to take issue with you and I hope this does not derail a very sensible discussion.

The British army did not and were not occupying part of your country when you were growing up. Their presence has always been and still is there in NI as a garrison just like Aldershot, or, Tidworth in England. However there certainly were reinforcements drafted in to assist the Civil Administration. An occupation? Most certainly not. I know that it does depend on point of view, but historically those are the facts.

Sorry jock, I think we'll just have to disagree on this point. I had to go through an army checkpoint everyday going home from school, sometimes being searched There were soldiers walking around the streets with rifles. Maybe I'm being naive, and the same kind of thing happened in Aldershot or Tidworth.

[Jock Scot]

Sorry jock, I think we'll just have to disagree on this point. I had to go through an army checkpoint everyday going home from school, sometimes being searched There were soldiers walking around the streets with rifles. Maybe I'm being naive, and the same kind of thing happened in Aldershot or Tidworth.

When the occasion has arisen there have indeed been checkpoints in Aldershot and Tidworth and at our airports and docks and I am afraid they will be, occasionally we hope, a fact of life in this uncertain world we now live in. If you go past any barracks in the UK you will see armed guards on sentry duty.

I grant you that "the troubles" caused an extreme measure by the Civil Administration to call in the British Army, nevertheless I think that everyone of whatever persuasion will have to admit that there were people behaving appallingly badly and yes the British army too on occasion. So yes you are, I am afraid, being naive.

[Blackrose87]

When the occasion has arisen there have indeed been checkpoints in Aldershot and Tidworth and at our airports and docks and I am afraid they will be, occasionally we hope, a fact of life in this uncertain world we now live in. If you go past any barracks in the UK you will see armed guards on sentry duty.

I grant you that "the troubles" caused an extreme measure by the Civil Administration to call in the British Army, nevertheless I think that everyone of whatever persuasion will have to admit that there were people behaving appallingly badly and yes the British army too on occasion. So yes you are, I am afraid, being naive.

You can't say armed guards on sentry duty outside a barracks are the same as soldiers patrolling the whole city, and doing random checks on people and houses.
There is also a difference between having 'occassional' check points, and a permanent stop and search check point on my road for 30 years.

From what I've read on this forum you always have insightful and intelligent comments, the majority of which I agree with. However, I can't agree with you on this. I know what I grew up experiencing, and it wasn't civil administration.

[Jock Scot]

You can't say armed guards on sentry duty outside a barracks are the same as soldiers patrolling the whole city, and doing random checks on people and houses.
There is also a difference between having 'occassional' check points, and a permanent stop and search check point on my road for 30 years.

From what I've read on this forum you always have insightful and intelligent comments, the majority of which I agree with. However, I can't agree with you on this. I know what I grew up experiencing, and it wasn't civil administration.

What you grew up in was the result of people behaving appallingly badly and as a result of that the army did their job and a very difficult job. If there are ruthless armed and lawless people in the community then what you had to endure was the result. Not pleasant, not something any thinking person would want for sure, or to be proud of necessarily, but that was still not an occupation.

If those ruthless, armed, dangerous people in NI were not there . Why would the armed British Army be out on the streets of NI? If everything was just dandy there, the Army had no need to be there patroling the streets. The fact is, that some people of NI were behaving well beyond what is required in a civilised society and that was going on well before the army was called in. Things escalated from there of that there is no doubt and there is also no doubt that there were genuine grievances that existed, but once the bomb and bullet took precedence over the ballot box then in reality the Civil Authorities had no other choice than to do what they did. That still does not make an occupation.

Yes we both know where we stand, let us move on.

[CDNSushi]

Yes we both know where we stand, let us move on.

Ladies & gentlemen, on behalf on the XMTS staff, I'd like to encourage everyone to take that bit of advice to heart.

This thread has been reported to the moderators as possibly breaking Rule #5.

Rule #5
- Discussions on the topics of religion and politics most often result in conflict between members. Posts which quote historical facts or historical events are acceptable. Discussions of the rightness or wrongness of, espousing one over another, perceptions of, or personal belief in, a religion or political system are not acceptable. Quite simply, check your religion and politics at the door before entering.

Because the discussion has been civil so far, the mods do not see the need to lock or remove the thread for the time being, and at this time I am simply informing everyone that a report has been made, meaning that we will be discussing whether or not this rule is broken. In the mean time, I would suggest to change the course of discussion so that we do not have to pursue any further action.

Thank you for your understanding.

JD
For the XMTS Staff