The Kilt's use in Irish Nationalism

[Blackrose87]

A passport do not a Scott make - sorry Richard....

Surely that's only because there is no such thing as a Scottish passport?
But generally passports are the most obvious way of showing one's citizenship?

[Detroitpete]

I would never speak for anyone else, but in answer to the OP's initial question--I can say that this upcoming Sunday provides my answer.

This Sunday here in Detroit--more specifically, the Detroit neighbohood known as "Corktown" we will have our 54th Annual St. Patrick's Parade. The sponsors are a committe of many different Irish and dare I say "Celtic" and "Gaelic" associations.

There will be--as is the norm, kilts. There will be saffron kilts and tartan kilts. Many wearers of which will be martching and playing in Police Bands, Pipe Bands, Irish, 'Celtic' and 'Gaelic' organizations, as well as others attending the parade.

The city will take great pride in celebrating the contributions and sacrifices that the sons and daughters of Ireland have given to our city.

There will be blantant Irish Nationalist pride. The aid committees for northern Ireland will be there. There will be many kilts.

So at least in my little corner of the world, kilts are being worn as a symbol of Irish Nationalism, no matter who believes it is proper or not.

[Blackrose87]

I would never speak for anyone else, but in answer to the OP's initial question--I can say that this upcoming Sunday provides my answer.

This Sunday here in Detroit--more specifically, the Detroit neighbohood known as "Corktown" we will have our 54th Annual St. Patrick's Parade. The sponsors are a committe of many different Irish and dare I say "Celtic" and "Gaelic" associations.

There will be--as is the norm, kilts. There will be saffron kilts and tartan kilts. Many wearers of which will be martching and playing in Police Bands, Pipe Bands, Irish, 'Celtic' and 'Gaelic' organizations, as well as others attending the parade.

The city will take great pride in celebrating the contributions and sacrifices that the sons and daughters of Ireland have given to our city.

There will be blantant Irish Nationalist pride. The aid committees for northern Ireland will be there. There will be many kilts.

So at least in my little corner of the world, kilts are being worn as a symbol of Irish Nationalism, no matter who believes it is proper or not.

I think that there's definite evidence of the Irish diaspora taking up the kilt as a symbol. But in the original question I was more wondering about the attempt to adopt it as a symbol and national dress in Ireland, and why this basically gained no support.
I'm in no position to explain why the diaspora wear the kilt, but I'm guessing after generations and generations of being displaced from the original culture, traditions are lost, new ones are created and ones may be borrowed from other cultures.

[Detroitpete]

I think that there's definite evidence of the Irish diaspora taking up the kilt as a symbol. But in the original question I was more wondering about the attempt to adopt it as a symbol and national dress in Ireland, and why this basically gained no support.
I'm in no position to explain why the diaspora wear the kilt, but I'm guessing after generations and generations of being displaced from the original culture, traditions are lost, new ones are created and ones may be borrowed from other cultures.

My mother was born in Sicily. It was interesting to hear a very similar discussion between her contemporaries and her father's lot. And that was from the span of a single generation.

[CMcG]

However, there does not seem to be any factual basis in the "Irish Invasion" story at all, you can read about the first strong investigations into the myth in the 1970's here, if you read the article you will see that there is plenty evidence to make the whole myth nonsense. Please do read the article, it's good fun. Dr Ewan Campbell's archaelogical investigations have also shown the whole thing to be an interesting story, but no more.

OK, I read that article and it is was very interesting. While there appears to be no archeological evidence of an Irish invasion of the Highlands and Islands, Campbell prefers to think of it as a shared culturo-linguistic region. To me, this means there is a legitimate, ancient connection between the Gaelic regions of the world and supports a view that the Irish kilt is just a linking of long-separated branches of one family tree. It also neatly disposes with a cryptocolonialist bias, that is rooted in modern conceptions of a nation-state as the primary unit of analysis, and actually opens up more interesting questions.

In Campbell's "Were the Scots Irish?" (2001) he concludes "Surely the question that is of interest here is not 'where did people come from?', but 'how did people establish and change their personal and group identity by manipulating oral, literary and material culture?'." Myths are powerful forces in the creation of identity and can't be ignored...

A passport do not a Scott make - sorry Richard....

Surely that's only because there is no such thing as a Scottish passport?
But generally passports are the most obvious way of showing one's citizenship?

Glen and Blackrose87, you are both right! My point is that rooting concepts of national identity in legal citizenship is fraught with problems.

So at least in my little corner of the world, kilts are being worn as a symbol of Irish Nationalism, no matter who believes it is proper or not.

I know what you mean. The Irish kilt is remarkably well-established outside Ireland, eh?

I think that there's definite evidence of the Irish diaspora taking up the kilt as a symbol. But in the original question I was more wondering about the attempt to adopt it as a symbol and national dress in Ireland, and why this basically gained no support.

During the period of the Gaelic revival, War of Independence, and early republican era, some people wore kilts. Then, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't Irish pipers in Ireland still wear kilts? I've also seen Irish dancers do the same. After civilian kilt wear declined in Ireland, it seems to have gained strength in the diaspora, who have now sustained it to the point of becoming established as a tradition.

Seems fairly well supported to me. I've seen other examples of cultural practices being preserved better in the diaspora than in the mother country e.g. Chinese lion dance is more traditional in Toronto than it is in Hong Kong or China, and there is Ukrainian music and attire in Alberta that has apparently disappeared from the Ukraine.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

During the period of the Gaelic revival, War of Independence, and early republican era, some people wore kilts (emphasis added- MoR).

Yes, some people wore kilts, but very few given the population of Ireland (less than 5 million) in the time frame you've outlined. In fact, I'd suggest that all of the kilt wearers in Ireland could have sat down to dinner at Gresham's Hotel in Dublin and still left room for a bus load of tourists in the dining room.

After civilian kilt wear declined (emphasis added by MoR) in Ireland, it seems to have gained strength in the diaspora, who have now sustained it to the point of becoming established as a tradition.

I'm not sure that civilian kilt wear in Ireland can be fairly described as having declined, given that only a miniscule percentage of the civilian population wore the kilt in the first place. If one looks at the period 1900-1939 I think one would be hard pressed to find any evidence to suggest even 1/10th of 1% of the Irish population went about kilted.

Rather than being a tradition sustained by the diaspora, it more than likely seems to be an attempt by some in the diaspora to create a national costume and, at that, an attempt that really only started to pick up steam with the proliferation of "Irish tartans" and "Irish kilts" and "Irish kilt jackets" in the 1990s.

It was the widely held view of those in the Department of Art, Heritage, the Gaeltacht, and the Islands that the creation of a "national costume" where none existed was a direct result of some of the Irish diaspora feeling threatened with a loss of cultural identity as the United States and other countries became more homogenized societies, caused, no doubt, as result of a rise in political correctness. Far from being an established tradition, a more apt analysis might suggest that for some in the diaspora the Irish kilt is like the security blanket carried around by Linus in the Peanuts comic strip.

[MacSpadger]

To me, this means there is a legitimate, ancient connection between the Gaelic regions of the world and supports a view that the Irish kilt is just a linking of long-separated branches of one family tree.

To me it means that long ago someone made up a story about kings and wizards and magic and nowadays people quote the one part of the story that fits in with what they want to believe because it dovetails with their views. It's invention, pure and simple.

Rather than being a tradition sustained by the diaspora, it more than likely seems to be an attempt by some in the diaspora to create a national costume and, at that, an attempt that really only started to pick up steam with the proliferation of "Irish tartans" and "Irish kilts" and "Irish kilt jackets" in the 1990s.

It was the widely held view of those in the Department of Art, Heritage, the Gaeltacht, and the Islands that the creation of a "national costume" where none existed was a direct result of some of the Irish diaspora feeling threatened with a loss of cultural identity as the United States and other countries became more homogenized societies, caused, no doubt, as result of a rise in political correctness. Far from being an established tradition, a more apt analysis might suggest that for some in the diaspora the Irish kilt is like the security blanket carried around by Linus in the Peanuts comic strip.

Out of all the posts pertaining to the 'diaspora' in this thread, this is the one that makes sense to me. Thank you. Gaelic League records that exist in London, (British Library & London Irish Centre) and (bizzarely), Sydney, Australia do seem to point to the number of kilt wearers in Ireland during the adoption attempt only reaching double figures at it's peak, and I am including the pupils at St Enda's school in that figure.

Ironically the creation of this "national costume" in the USA has led to feelings of homogenisation and a threat of loss of cultural identity over here. What was once instantly recognisable as Scottish is no longer so. We are a small nation and the few things we have appear to be getting taken from us by a large nation. I have been wearing the kilt for 4 decades now, but can't get my head around some of the trains of thought on here. I am off to watch the Scotland vs Ireland match now, I know whose supporters will be wearing the kilts to show who they are. Cheerio.

[hkjrb623]

In the end does it really matter. No amount of banter is going to reverse the emergence of the Irish kilt. Whether you view the kilt as strictly Scottish or not doesn't matter. Other Celtic nations have adopted it as well. To me the kilt is Scottish, but the more kilt wearers the better. The spread of kilt wearing also enables people of other Celtic or Gaelic ancestry to show themselves. Besides, to think that the Celtic or Gaelic tribes didn't intermingle is completely ridiculous. Just look at how the Norse tribes spread. Most of us with Irish or Scottish bloodlines also share a dose of that DNA as well. The argument of "separated by mountains" really sells these people short. I guess the human race never crossed mountains until the invention of the airplane.

[Jock Scot]

To me it means that long ago someone made up a story about kings and wizards and magic and nowadays people quote the one part of the story that fits in with what they want to believe because it dovetails with their views. It's invention, pure and simple.



Out of all the posts pertaining to the 'diaspora' in this thread, this is the one that makes sense to me. Thank you. Gaelic League records that exist in London, (British Library & London Irish Centre) and (bizzarely), Sydney, Australia do seem to point to the number of kilt wearers in Ireland during the adoption attempt only reaching double figures at it's peak, and I am including the pupils at St Enda's school in that figure.

Ironically the creation of this "national costume" in the USA has led to feelings of homogenisation and a threat of loss of cultural identity over here. What was once instantly recognisable as Scottish is no longer so. We are a small nation and the few things we have appear to be getting taken from us by a large nation. I have been wearing the kilt for 4 decades now, but can't get my head around some of the trains of thought on here. I am off to watch the Scotland vs Ireland match now, I know whose supporters will be wearing the kilts to show who they are. Cheerio.

One of these fine days I would like to buy you a drink!

[Blackrose87]

As a very astute Irishman once said, "Celtic" doesn't mean anything unless you are trying to sell someone something.

I'm not great at Irish, but I know that 'Celtic' translates as 'Celteich', which is the same in Scots Gaelic. And a similar word in Welsh,' Celtaiddh', Translates as the same.

Now, I dont know if these words are the original source, or have been formed from the English word 'Celtic'.
You're asserting that the only reason the word exists is for commercial purposes, so what would be the point of having it in the Gaelic languages? To see us natives back our own stuff?

I can't think of an instance where a gaelgoir would need to be convinced of the 'Celtic link', in other to sell him something from Scotland.