Irish Kilts: solid vs. tartan

[Jock Scot]

Richard, I usually enjoy your posts, but this is utter nonsense. For a start, not even in the Highlands is Highland Dress considered entirely traditional. It's most certainly not "unbroken" by a long shot and again the Irish/Highland angle, which seems to still come from Bede's myth being reported as actual history.

There are a great many in Scotland who consider Highland Dress, (as we know it) to be a creation of the fashionable upper class Victorians. A lot of our ideas about Highland dress, and indeed customs, come from the Highland Society of London's ideas on what was traditional. These were very wealthy people privately educated in England, where they lived although some owned land in Scotland. I no more consider them to have an idea of Highland tradition than I would any other absent Scottish landowner, such as the Sultan of Brunai or even Donald Trump, (although he does keep going on and on and on about it).

Highland dress also went through a period of reinvention about 100 to 80 years before the Irish reinvention. It's the view of many pipers that when we wear Highland dress we are dressing in the style of our Victorian forebears, but probably not much further back. That's how it was taught in Aberdeenshire, that's how it's taught in Strathclyde, and I have been told the same goes for Tayside and the Lothians too. It's been a couple of years since I have been in Inverness or Skye so I can'y comment there. The likes of Angus MacKay and the subjects painted in Kenneth McLeay's Highlanders of Scotland in the 1860's were being dressed by their employers in the type of clothing that those self same employers hope would reflect their status, wealth and taste. Victorian taste. However, they did like to represent it as something ancient.

In a reflection of the Highland Society of London, the Irish Gaelic League was also originally composed of very wealthy people privately educated in England, where many of them lived, although some owned land in Ireland as well. They held their meetings in Kensington. An equivalent might be fashionistas of Beverley Hills meeting to discuss how Appalachian mountain dwellers would dress.

Of course, as I've said before, if the kilt, etc, is the traditional dress of the bonny bonny Heilan's, and everyone wore it, then why do the bodies found in Highland bogs there not show evidence of this?

Sigh, sigh again and thrice sigh. How many times does the above have to be said, before the penny drops?

Well said!

[Paul Henry]

I like to put things in perspective, take the long view, and try to stay reasonably within tradition.

We should perhaps keep in mind that Highland Dress itself is the unbroken traditional descendant of the ancient Irish dress. Tartan is a living reminder of the ancient Gaelic love for colour and pattern. Kilts are the direct descendant of the ancient Irish "mantle" or to give it its traditional Gaelic title Brat.

The traditional Irish costume was deliberately exterminated by the English so when the Irish Revial took off in the late 19th century all they had to go on were images like this, a 1521 eyewitness record of the traditional Irish dress



These revivalists evidently misunderstood the nature of the traditional Leine and Brat costume and thought that the end of the Leine was a solid-coloured kilt. Here is a classic Revival costume from 1910



It would have been far more fitting, traditional, and historical for the "Gaelic Revival" in Ireland to have adopted Highland Dress entire, as it is the living unbroken descendant of the 1521 dress.

So, on many grounds, traditional, historical, and aesthetic, I am not a fan of plain solid selfcoloured kilts being promoted as the standard "traditional" Irish kilt. Of course solid kilts were not unknown in Scotland itself: I have come across a few 19th century images of them, such as this one



Luckily the ancient Gaelic love for colour and pattern has reasserted itself and today there are many Irish tartans. This explosion, as far as I can tell, was kicked off by the House of Edgar in the 1980s when they introduced lovely tartans for each Irish county, which have become very popular, though colours seem to have been assigned more or less at random, and not in keeping with the counties' colours as can be seen in GAA kits etc.

Seem that most civilian Irish pipe bands nowadays (the ones in Ireland I mean, not US ones) have gone over to tartan kilts.

oh dear, wrong again in so many places

[KWD]

To most of the people tartan is a Scottish thing, while solid might be something else. Maybe if they see green or saffron kilts they will think it's Irish, but tartan will usually say "Scottish" to other people.

Just an observation.

I must disagree, I can't count how many people ask me if I am Irish when wearing a Kilt, but only a handful actually ask me if I am Scottish. I actually had a small fun debate with a gentleman over Kilts and Bagpipes being Irish and not Scottish, let me tell you, there is no arguing with a half snotlockered Irishman on most anything....

[Blackrose87]

Really?! I would be very surprised and would have thought that this colour (together with green) would be studiously avoided.

Sorry, I meant by someone unaware of the meaning of the kilt, which in reality would be the majority of people.
If I was wearing one, they would see me in an orange kilt. I know that before I was more aware of the history of kilts, I would have assumed that this kilt was associated with the orange order in some way. Both due touts colour, and it's association with the Ulster-scots and Scotland.

[Lime]

Sorry, I meant by someone unaware of the meaning of the kilt, which in reality would be the majority of people.
If I was wearing one, they would see me in an orange kilt. I know that before I was more aware of the history of kilts, I would have assumed that this kilt was associated with the orange order in some way. Both due touts colour, and it's association with the Ulster-scots and Scotland.

Nothing to apologise for. I find it quite interesting that, in the same position as you, I would have assumed precisely the opposite and thought it was connected with Irish Nationalism in some way! The assumption would probably have come from some subliminal connection between the saffron colour of the kilt and the orange in of the Irish flag.

[Peter Crowe]

Richard, I usually enjoy your posts, but this is utter nonsense. For a start, not even in the Highlands is Highland Dress considered entirely traditional. It's most certainly not "unbroken" by a long shot and again the Irish/Highland angle, which seems to still come from Bede's myth being reported as actual history.

There are a great many in Scotland who consider Highland Dress, (as we know it) to be a creation of the fashionable upper class Victorians. A lot of our ideas about Highland dress, and indeed customs, come from the Highland Society of London's ideas on what was traditional. These were very wealthy people privately educated in England, where they lived although some owned land in Scotland. I no more consider them to have an idea of Highland tradition than I would any other absent Scottish landowner, such as the Sultan of Brunai or even Donald Trump, (although he does keep going on and on and on about it).

Highland dress also went through a period of reinvention about 100 to 80 years before the Irish reinvention. It's the view of many pipers that when we wear Highland dress we are dressing in the style of our Victorian forebears, but probably not much further back. That's how it was taught in Aberdeenshire, that's how it's taught in Strathclyde, and I have been told the same goes for Tayside and the Lothians too. It's been a couple of years since I have been in Inverness or Skye so I can'y comment there. The likes of Angus MacKay and the subjects painted in Kenneth McLeay's Highlanders of Scotland in the 1860's were being dressed by their employers in the type of clothing that those self same employers hope would reflect their status, wealth and taste. Victorian taste. However, they did like to represent it as something ancient.

In a reflection of the Highland Society of London, the Irish Gaelic League was also originally composed of very wealthy people privately educated in England, where many of them lived, although some owned land in Ireland as well. They held their meetings in Kensington. An equivalent might be fashionistas of Beverley Hills meeting to discuss how Appalachian mountain dwellers would dress.

Of course, as I've said before, if the kilt, etc, is the traditional dress of the bonny bonny Heilan's, and everyone wore it, then why do the bodies found in Highland bogs there not show evidence of this?

I agree with Jock, well said MacSpadger!

[Lime]

Very true. Moving from speculation to personal opinion then, what do you think when you see a solid saffron kilt?

I don't think I have ever seen a solid saffron kilt "in the wild" but in order of thought I would probably think:

1. Tourist
2. Fashionista
3. Some sort of political statement on Irish Nationalism

So basically I would think about some sort of Irish connection as being pretty far down the list!

[Blackrose87]

Nothing to apologise for. I find it quite interesting that, in the same position as you, I would have assumed precisely the opposite and thought it was connected with Irish Nationalism in some way! The assumption would probably have come from some subliminal connection between the saffron colour of the kilt and the orange in of the Irish flag.

The Irish tricolour was designed to represent all people of Ireland, the Catholics (Green) and the Protestants in the north (Orange). And the white was for peace between them.
The orange was chosen due to the significance of this colour by the Protetants and Ulster-Scots in the north, due to their connection to William of Orange.

[opositive]

"There are a great many in Scotland who consider Highland Dress, (as we know it) to be a creation of the fashionable upper class Victorians. A lot of our ideas about Highland dress, and indeed customs, come from the Highland Society of London's ideas on what was traditional. "
-macspadger

the last two days, i have been spending more time in the historical section and looking at the vintage photos thread. the more vintage pics i looked at, the more it struck me that that the civilians looked like gentry. after a while, i started wondering where the regular folk were. other than soldiers and some highland games athletes, i am not sure if i saw any pics (so far-it is a very long thread) of common folk doing regular daily activities kilted. elsewhere, i have seen period paintings of kilted scots in idyllic pastoral settings fishing or herding sheep--but no pics (yes, i know photography was mostly done as portraits and posed shots in the 1800's due to technical limitations).

as for the color/tartan/irish/scottish arguments about who has the best or longest historical lineage, today's events become history tomorrow. today's practice becomes tomorrow's custom. when do the seeds sown by the irish nationalists with saffron kilts and the like start to "count" as history or tradition? my guess is that for the brits, scots and irish, roots take a lot longer to set than in the usa.

[jetstar63]

I like them all. Variety you know.