Irish Kilt?

[Phil]

This has been an interesting thread with a great deal of erudite historical comment and the fascination for me has been the significance that the kilt seems to have achieved as a symbol of Irish culture among north Americans when celebrating what they believe to be their ancestry. That it should be associated with green-coloured beer and other strange manifestations of an imaginary created culture does not lend a great deal of credence to the legitimacy of this however. This strong belief in the kilt as an Irish icon is one that comes up regularly in this forum and does fly in the face of everything in my experience to date. I do wonder perhaps if a certain confusion has arisen in the past about specific ancestry as I do know that many non-British people overseas, including most Americans I have met, have great difficulty in differentiating the separate nations within the British Isles and tend to lump them all together as from England. In a similar vein I have seen comment here and elsewhere that some people with a “Mc” surname have believed that they had Irish ancestry so this confusion may be further confounded. No doubt the current fashion for genealogy will help to dispel some of these myths among the genuine seekers after the truth but there will undoubtedly remain many more left with their own versions of their ancestry and to quote another Irish relation – “He would argue a black crow was white” – it seems to be in the genes.
With many Irish relations from one side of my family I believe that I can claim to know a little of Irish life from first-hand experience, although I would not for a minute consider myself competent to pronounce on any historical matters beyond my lifetime. Having spent much time in Ireland over many years I can only say that I have never encountered any cultural or philosophical rationale towards kilt-wearing in anyone I have met. While there is a generally favourable attitude towards Scottish people, Scottish culture and dress is most definitely regarded as a tiny bit foreign, great for pipe bands, but to wear a kilt themselves would never even enter their heads. “Now what would I be doing something like that for?” would be the response you would get if you asked if they would wear a kilt.
As to the legitimacy of the kilt as an historic Irish garment, well this can be the subject of endless argument to prove or disprove, and I do detect a scintilla of entrenched views opening up in the discussion, but I just wonder what historians will argue about in a few hundred years’ time when discovering in sites like this that Americans actually wore kilts many hundreds of years earlier and this must prove that it was their national dress at the time!

[CMcG]

...the fascination for me has been the significance that the kilt seems to have achieved as a symbol of Irish culture among north Americans when celebrating what they believe to be their ancestry. That it should be associated with green-coloured beer and other strange manifestations of an imaginary created culture does not lend a great deal of credence to the legitimacy of this however...

Once a diaspora has been separated from the homeland for long enough, a lot of things change and evolve. It's not just the Irish either. Apparently the Ren Faire atmosphere of some North American Highland games has equally little to do with practice in Scotland

While the origins of the Irish kilt are historically rooted in the romantic imaginary of the Gaelic revival, I assure you that hypenated-Irish culture abroad is not a figment of your -- or their -- imagination. No more, anyway, than Lowlanders embracing the Highland kilt. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but they have little more history of such than the Irish

Don't get me wrong; I have no misgivings towards anyone who would like to wear the kilt

Some people wear the kilt purely for style or comfort, but often people attach more meaning to it. There is a whole sliding scale from myths and legends to thin and misty rationalizations; the marketing machine of the Highland attire industry and imagined communities, national or otherwise; and of course family connections direct or indirect.

I see kilt wearing kind of like Santa Claus. We know rationally that he isn't real and can't fly all over the world in a sleigh pulled by reindeer, but it is fun to believe in him anyway and enjoy Christmas traditions for what they are worth. Thanks to the efforts of our resident historians and experts, Xmarkers should be fairly well educated about kilt history and facts, but that doesn't stop people from all different levels of "legitimacy" from enjoying the kilt.

[Phil]

While the origins of the Irish kilt are historically rooted in the romantic imaginary of the Gaelic revival, I assure you that hypenated-Irish culture abroad is not a figment of your -- or their -- imagination. No more, anyway, than Lowlanders embracing the Highland kilt. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but they have little more history of such than the Irish

Unfortunately the link you provided requires a password but I do appreciate where you are coming from - namely the legitimacy of anyone outwith a small, prescribed area of Scotland wearing a kilt. Presumably the article does not differentiate between actual residents of 'The Highlands' and those who have relocated to other, less favoured, areas of Scotland, such as the Lowlands for example.

Don't get me wrong; I have no misgivings towards anyone who would like to wear the kilt

These are my sentiments entirely. I couldn't agree more but the impression that I have gleaned, however, is not to do with the validity or otherwise of those who choose to wear the kilt but rather that those who assume anyone wearing a kilt must be Irish. This is obviously something deeply-rooted in the mind of many such people. I wonder, perhaps, if it relates to the general misconception found by the British abroad that their country (Great Britain) is regarded by others as consisting of just two countries - England and Ireland. When asked the question on numerous occasions while in America "Are you from England?",no doubt after overhearing my speech, my response "No. Scotland actually" invariably elicits a puzzled look of incomprehension. I am assuming that such individuals do realise that kilts are not an English form of dress so must belong to that other place over there. What's it called? Oh yes - Ireland!

[Meggers]

These are my sentiments entirely. I couldn't agree more but the impression that I have gleaned, however, is not to do with the validity or otherwise of those who choose to wear the kilt but rather that those who assume anyone wearing a kilt must be Irish. This is obviously something deeply-rooted in the mind of many such people. I wonder, perhaps, if it relates to the general misconception found by the British abroad that their country (Great Britain) is regarded by others as consisting of just two countries - England and Ireland. When asked the question on numerous occasions while in America "Are you from England?",no doubt after overhearing my speech, my response "No. Scotland actually" invariably elicits a puzzled look of incomprehension. I am assuming that such individuals do realise that kilts are not an English form of dress so must belong to that other place over there. What's it called? Oh yes - Ireland!

Part of me is very glad that I dont run into this issue because it would drive me up the wall. A tartan skirt doesnt invoke the same reaction out of people as a tartan kilt and no one has ever approached my skirt and asked "Are you Irish?" (to which I would say "yes" since I am Irish but then would have to explain "but today I am honoring my Scottish heritage") the tartan skirt, on a woman, usually gets the reaction "cute skirt! Where did you get it!?" (to me, almost equally annoying!!!)

I can't help but actually feel a bit sorry for the Irish diaspora because fantasy Ireland has taken prescendence over real Ireland and, in some ways I understand that, but fantasy Ireland seems to honestly make Ireland out to be a little worse than it really is. The celebration of St. Patricks Day, a day of a Catholic saint, has turned into one of the biggest drinking days of the year, and green beer has now become what it means to be Irish. Many Irish-Americans have no idea what being Irish is or what being Irish means. Most of us have no idea about the dark Irish history in America and, to be honest, most of us wouldnt care. Being Irish means wearing a "kilt" (or a thigh-length womens pleated skirt like I saw on one man), a bright orange wig, and getting totally and completely s*itefaced on St. Pattys Day.

[macwilkin]

I can't help but actually feel a bit sorry for the Irish diaspora because fantasy Ireland has taken prescendence over real Ireland and, in some ways I understand that, but fantasy Ireland seems to honestly make Ireland out to be a little worse than it really is. The celebration of St. Patricks Day, a day of a Catholic saint, has turned into one of the biggest drinking days of the year, and green beer has now become what it means to be Irish. Many Irish-Americans have no idea what being Irish is or what being Irish means. Most of us have no idea about the dark Irish history in America and, to be honest, most of us wouldnt care. Being Irish means wearing a "kilt" (or a thigh-length womens pleated skirt like I saw on one man), a bright orange wig, and getting totally and completely s*itefaced on St. Pattys Day.

One other thing to consider: the St. Patrick's Day parade has its roots in America. Tradition says that either Boston or New York claims the first, and that Irish-American fraternal organizations, Irish soldiers in the British Army and later, Washington's troops, celebrated St. Patrick's Day with a parade. Over the years, as the Irish-American community slowly became accepted in the larger community (after years of discrimination and hostility), the St. Patrick's Day parade became less and less (if ever) about the feast day of Ireland's patron saint, and more about a celebration of having "made it". Hence why American celebrations tend to mirror Mardi Gras -- and even that is is not "true" Mardi Gras -- being married to a Cajun, I know what that is. <grin>

St. Patrick's Day in Ireland, according to Irish friends, was always more solemn, a day when the pubs were closed and everyone went to Mass. Parades were largely ceremonial military parades, and it's only been recently that American parade customs have been brought to Ireland.
T.

[seanachie]

I can't help but actually feel a bit sorry for the Irish diaspora because fantasy Ireland has taken prescendence over real Ireland and, in some ways I understand that, but fantasy Ireland seems to honestly make Ireland out to be a little worse than it really is. The celebration of St. Patricks Day, a day of a Catholic saint, has turned into one of the biggest drinking days of the year, and green beer has now become what it means to be Irish. Many Irish-Americans have no idea what being Irish is or what being Irish means. Most of us have no idea about the dark Irish history in America and, to be honest, most of us wouldnt care. Being Irish means wearing a "kilt" (or a thigh-length womens pleated skirt like I saw on one man), a bright orange wig, and getting totally and completely s*itefaced on St. Pattys Day.

I think there are a lot of generalizations and stereotypes in these comments. it might be best to speak for one self. I won only ever one academic award ever in school and I wrote my year long paper on Eamonn de Valera. So no claims on knowing but a little, but I read what I can. You should also know there are places like Boston College that have very well regarded Irish studies programs. Another question you should ponder is who the drunk hooligans are on St Patrick's day, I have seen many who come from a wide range of ethnicities looking for nothing better than a reason to get drunk. There is no membership card for stupid caricatured outfits. Look at the men who lost their lives in the after math of Easter 1916 and amongst that group are men who wore the kilt. You can have varied opinions on that but that is history and many look up to them. There are chapters of the Ancient Order of Hibernians that bear their name.

If I seem at all touchy on the issue, look at the comments in USA Today after Katie Taylor won the gold medal pretty ignorant comments to my mind.

[Phil]

This article in today's press sheds some interesting light on the origins of Scots people from DNA evidence obtained. It sounds like Ireland might not have been the origin some here are claiming after all - http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman...tory-1-2465715 . Of course it would be interesting to see a similar study for Ireland as the theory seems to be that successive migrations from east to west pushed right to the Atlantic coast until they could go no further. This would seem to imply that mainland Britain was populated first in this way after the last Ice Age before spilling over into Ireland. Interesting too that Scottish women's DNA is older indicating that they didn't move around much while many men arrived later.

[MacSpadger]

This article in today's press sheds some interesting light on the origins of Scots people from DNA evidence obtained. It sounds like Ireland might not have been the origin some here are claiming after all - http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman...tory-1-2465715 . Of course it would be interesting to see a similar study for Ireland as the theory seems to be that successive migrations from east to west pushed right to the Atlantic coast until they could go no further. This would seem to imply that mainland Britain was populated first in this way after the last Ice Age before spilling over into Ireland. Interesting too that Scottish women's DNA is older indicating that they didn't move around much while many men arrived later.

Good stuff. I have been waiting for the results while following the items in the news as the announcement got nearer. Interesting that a third of Scotsmen have Germanic, Teutonic, Alpine and Saxon Y chromosome DNA. Scots history has always had a number of immigrants coming in from Eastern Europe, not just workers and artisans but also significant additions to the Stewart royalty.

[Tobus]

I can't help but actually feel a bit sorry for the Irish diaspora because fantasy Ireland has taken prescendence over real Ireland and, in some ways I understand that, but fantasy Ireland seems to honestly make Ireland out to be a little worse than it really is. The celebration of St. Patricks Day, a day of a Catholic saint, has turned into one of the biggest drinking days of the year, and green beer has now become what it means to be Irish. Many Irish-Americans have no idea what being Irish is or what being Irish means. Most of us have no idea about the dark Irish history in America and, to be honest, most of us wouldnt care. Being Irish means wearing a "kilt" (or a thigh-length womens pleated skirt like I saw on one man), a bright orange wig, and getting totally and completely s*itefaced on St. Pattys Day.

Yes, sadly, the popular culture of American Irishness is far from anything the Irish themselves would claim as their culture or traditions. However, it is a very interesting phenomenon when studied against the backdrop of immigration from Ireland. Especially when you consider that much of the American sense of Irishness came from the Ulster Scots (aka Scots-Irish).

Two books I recommend on the subject are The Scotch-Irish: A Social History by James G. Leyburn, and Chasing the Frontier: Scots-Irish in Early America by Larry Hoefling. These books go a long way in explaining the unique aspects of how America's culture was shaped by Ulster Scots. Keep in mind that the large influx of Ulster Scots happened just prior to the large influx of Irish, although there was plenty of overlap in immigration between the two groups. The Ulster Scots immigration pattern had its most significant numbers in the early 1700s, while the Irish immigration pattern was around mid-century and later. Their cultures and histories were vastly different, but when they came to America they were simply seen as "Irish", and these two groups (despite their differences and even their mutual animosity) faced the same sort of prejudice from those who had already settled here. They were stereotyped, mocked, and culturally oppressed in a lot of areas. This stereotyping of Irish immigrants played an important part in our (later) perceptions of Irish culture. Especially with regards to such things as eating potatoes, alcoholism, being poor, etc.

So a curious thing happened. As American culture started getting blended with all these different groups (including all the other nationalities that had settled here), a new sense of "Irishness" came about. A lot of the Irish and Ulster Scot immigrants let go of their previous cultural attachments and attempted to embrace a new identity, or their cultural traditions changed over time (as they tend to do when separated from the motherland). Unfortunately, this means that they lost their original traditions and ties to the Old World. It was several generations later before people became interested in reviving it, and by that time, the cultures had been so mixed and distorted that it was difficult to find anything that remotely resembled the truth. That, coupled with the new Irish nationalist movement going on in Ireland, further distorted the American perception of the truth. And it has morphed into what we know today as the American sense of "Irishness". The Irish can't make any sense of it; nor can the Ulster Scots, or Northern Ireland inhabitants, regardless of where they came from originally.

This new perception of Irish culture quickly became a stereotype. It was a blend of the original negative stereotypes I mentioned earlier and the new fragments of Irish culture we were getting from the Irish nationalist movement. In my mind, this is how the non-educated people of America got to the point of thinking that the Irish wear kilts, drink a lot, and talk to leprechauns. It's a mish-mash of insulting stereotypes and incorrect cultural history that has taken firm root in popular American culture and been mercilessly promoted by Hollywood and other 'entertainment' venues. Unfortunate though it may be, it's actually a pretty interesting phenomenon for studying.

[macwilkin]

Yes, sadly, the popular culture of American Irishness is far from anything the Irish themselves would claim as their culture or traditions. However, it is a very interesting phenomenon when studied against the backdrop of immigration from Ireland. Especially when you consider that much of the American sense of Irishness came from the Ulster Scots (aka Scots-Irish).

Two books I recommend on the subject are The Scotch-Irish: A Social History by James G. Leyburn, and Chasing the Frontier: Scots-Irish in Early America by Larry Hoefling. These books go a long way in explaining the unique aspects of how America's culture was shaped by Ulster Scots. Keep in mind that the large influx of Ulster Scots happened just prior to the large influx of Irish, although there was plenty of overlap in immigration between the two groups. The Ulster Scots immigration pattern had its most significant numbers in the early 1700s, while the Irish immigration pattern was around mid-century and later. Their cultures and histories were vastly different, but when they came to America they were simply seen as "Irish", and these two groups (despite their differences and even their mutual animosity) faced the same sort of prejudice from those who had already settled here. They were stereotyped, mocked, and culturally oppressed in a lot of areas. This stereotyping of Irish immigrants played an important part in our (later) perceptions of Irish culture. Especially with regards to such things as eating potatoes, alcoholism, being poor, etc.

Close, but no cigar. The "Scots-Irish" assimilated to American society long before the arrival of the "famine" or "Green" Irish in the mid-1840s, when the potato blight and political tensions as a result of the 1848 Revolutions drove many Southern Irish from Ireland across the sea. In fact, many of those "native" Americans who stereotyped, mocked and culturally oppressed the Irish were most likely of Ulster-Scots blood themsselves. Before the arrival of the "Green" Irish, those Scots-Irish that did maintain some semblance of ethnic identity did refer to themselves as "Irish", although as you mentioned, the Ulster Scots were only Irish in geographic residence, not necessarily in culture.

As I tell my classes, the Scots-Irish dropped their ethnicity very quickly, intermarrying with Germans and French Protestants (David Crockett is the most famous example of that mixture) to become a distinctly American culture. Ironically, it was the Scots-Irish who persecuted the Loyalist Highlanders & members of the British Army's Highland regiments during the Revolution.

So a curious thing happened. As American culture started getting blended with all these different groups (including all the other nationalities that had settled here), a new sense of "Irishness" came about. A lot of the Irish and Ulster Scot immigrants let go of their previous cultural attachments and attempted to embrace a new identity, or their cultural traditions changed over time (as they tend to do when separated from the motherland). Unfortunately, this means that they lost their original traditions and ties to the Old World. It was several generations later before people became interested in reviving it, and by that time, the cultures had been so mixed and distorted that it was difficult to find anything that remotely resembled the truth. That, coupled with the new Irish nationalist movement going on in Ireland, further distorted the American perception of the truth. And it has morphed into what we know today as the American sense of "Irishness". The Irish can't make any sense of it; nor can the Ulster Scots, or Northern Ireland inhabitants, regardless of where they came from originally.

Actually, Northern Ireland has embraced the revived interest in Scots-Irish heritage; numerous cultural organizations are quick to point out the Ulster origins of American culture, particularly in the American South, as well as the Scots-Irish devotion to the American Revolution, their impact on traditional folk music and folk lore, etc. As early as 1902, the noted writer Owen Wister stated that it was the "Orange Irish" and not the "Green Irish" who helped win the Revolution. No doubt Wister read his friend Theodore Roosevelt's history of the American frontier, which also discussed the Scots-Irish.

Regards,

T.