Scottish outlook on kilted Americans?

[Tuirc]

I've read this whole torrid thread with interest. I'd say the most common attitude I've run across on boards such as these is very similar to Phil's last post. If you are not a subject of the British crown living within the political borders of Scotland, expats etc. excepted, you are not a Scot. Sometimes stated with emphasis added as Phil did.

Clearly you can't argue with that on flat political basis. You either are a citizen/subject of a country or you are not. In the broader context of the history of Scotland as a country, I think it's a bit more debatable than that clear cut statement or analysis. Taking the plight of the Highlander as an example, as an outsider observing, closely I would say, Scottish attitudes, Scots on the board correct me if I misstate here, Scots decry the injustice of clearances and perhaps even the disarming act both of which forced large numbers of Highlanders out of their native country. However, they don't seem willing to see any difference between an Indian, a Russian, an African or the sons and daughters of those countrymen that were forcibly removed. As I say, as a flat statement of current political status, it is an unassailable position. But, curious from my prospective.

Perhaps I'm being romantic, but I would like to think that if a large number of Americans were forced to go live in Bolivia as a consequence of the American Civil War, we would entertain a special place in our hearts here for their descendants. Certainly, they would not be regarded as no better or worse than anyone else who might happen to visit.

[David Thorpe]

No True Scotsman.

[Jock Scot]

Tuirc.

A good person is a good person wherever in the world they come from and even if they have Scots DNA coursing through their veins that does not necessarily make them a Scot!

The same goes, a Scot would say anyway, for those Bolivians with American DNA that does not make them Americans, they are Bolivians with roots in America---------------and if they so choose they can go further back, if the information is available. Like WE ALL can.

[Phil]

A good person is a good person wherever in the world they come from and even if they have Scots DNA coursing through their veins that does not necessarily make them a Scot!

Well said, Jock, and something I couldn't agree with more. Why there should be this desire to pretend to be something they are not I find difficult to understand, particularly when some then feel competent to pontificate on matters they cannot possibly understand, coming from a quite different background and experience. Certainly a little knowledge can be gleaned from books or Wikipedia pages but quite how reliable such sources are is not always clear. They do say that "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing".

[neloon]

some then feel competent to pontificate on matters they cannot possibly understand

"We shall continue to shed the American light upon the World" (President Obama)

[MacGumerait]

"We shall continue to shed the American light upon the World" (President Obama)

And where is that coming from ??

[Jock Scot]

"We shall continue to shed the American light upon the World" (President Obama)

Assuming the President is being quoted correctly, a comment like that worries the heck out of me!

Don't get me wrong, the world has much to be grateful for from the the United States of America, but------------------------

[The Wizard of BC]

In an effort to get this thread back to the original topic and away from the political tangent it seems to be taking let me give a personal view to the question "Scottish outlook on kilted Americans?"

OK, first some personal history. I was born and raised an American. I have lived all over the world and circumnavigated the globe three times. I currently live in Canada.
Genealogically I'm a N. American mutt. I have found one of my ancestors who, on a US census form, states his father was born in Scotland. But that was five generations ago and if I want to go that far back that man is only 1 out of 16 grandparents.

A couple of years ago I visited Scotland on a business trip. It was the first time I had been to Scotland since I began to make and wear kilts, but I did not go as a tourist as much as I did as a kiltmaker.

I took no trousers. All the kilts I wore were full traditional looking Tartans.
Just so you know, this is how I was dressed for much of my trip.



And while in Edinburgh like this



I would like to relate a few of my personal experiences that may help the OP with his question.

In over two weeks, except for X Marks members, and those attending a Highland Games, I saw only one other kilt. That was on another kiltmaker. (see the photo above)

I came away realizing that the Scots do not wear the kilt except for weddings or other special occasions. I feel that the Scots view the kilt much the way Alex said, a garment worn by tourists while in Scotland.

Here is how I found the experience of wearing a kilt while in Scotland.

Personal experience 1 -

While at a B&B just outside Stirling I overheard our host explaining to the other guests before breakfast that I would be coming to the table in a kilt. She explained this by saying "Another American expecting to live the dream."

I found this attitude, if not expressed aloud, whispered just within earshot behind my back, quite often. In two weeks I was laughed at, stared at, snickered at, and made the butt of more jokes than I have experienced in ten years wearing a kilt in N. America.

To the OP. If you wear a kilt in Scotland expect to be viewed automatically as a stupid tourist. One who came to Scotland expecting to see something like a cross between "Braveheart" and "Brigadoon".
If you pass a church where a wedding is happening you may see a Scot wearing a kilt, but by and large you will be the only one wearing a kilt and you will be seen as a tourist playing make believe that he is Scottish.



Personal experience 2 -

My wife and I visited Edinburgh and walked the entire Royal Mile twice. Not to see the sights as much as to experience the "Tartan Tat Controversy" first hand. I visited as many kilt shops as I could.

I walked into one of the most reputable and well known Traditional Scottish kilt shops. The sales person was in the far back stocking some shelves. He was dressed in a navy blue two piece suit and tie. As I walked in the bell rang, but I was able to walk the entire length of the store before the clerk turned around from what he was doing. He greeted me with a haughty "Oh, another American tourist came to Scotland and bought himself a kilt."
I replied with "I'm sorry sir, I'm a kiltmaker and this is how I dress every day. And you sir, just lost a sale."

To the OP. If you wear a kilt in Scotland expect to be met with an attitude bordering on snobbery from those in the kilt business. I visited weaving companies that had never heard of The Scottish Tartans Authority. One weaving company did not have a single computer and used a file of hand written cards containing their Tartan thread counts. They would not even listen to a question why their thread counts were different from every one else. Their reply was that their cards were written "before the war" so had to be correct.
I visited kilt shops manned by staff that were un-informed or mis-informed yet fully prepared to tell me that only they provided a "proper" kilt and accessories. These same shops often had only pure white hose on the shelves, all the mannikins were dressed in ruche ties and there were only Prince Charlie coatees on the racks.
I walked into one shop wearing an 8 yard, 16oz, completely hand-stitched Tewksbury kilt and was told in no uncertain terms that because it was not made in Scotland it was not a "true" kilt.


Personal experience 3 - and I promise this is the last one.

While in Edinburgh my wife and I visited the castle. As we crossed the parade ground she wanted to get an ice cream from a truck she saw. I continued towards the castle bridge.
If, during the time it took my wife to get her ice cream and join me, I had put my hat at my feet, I could have paid for the trip charging for photos. I was photographed posing with Japanese ladies, German ladies, Italian ladies, American ladies, and even three Scottish ladies.
As most of the visitors had come to Scotland expecting to see men in kilts and I was the only person actually wearing one, I became, for a short while, their ideal of Scotland.

To the OP. If you wear a kilt in Scotland expect to be greeted, talked to, and approached for photos everywhere. And always by other visitors. The Scots will treat you with indifference and a raised eyebrow but other visitors will tell you about their great aunt Maud who was born in Scotland and told the most wonderful stories about "the old country". They will tell you how Scottish they are and what Clan they belong to. They will even interrupt your dinner at a restaurant to tell you how pleased they are to finally see a "True Scotsman".


I thoroughly enjoyed my last visit to Scotland. I met some wonderful people and had some very enjoyable experiences.

But you know what? If I go again, I think I'll break down and buy some trousers.

[neloon]

If I go again, I think I'll break down and buy some trousers.

Steve,
Please come again soon just as you are - nae breeks. You are an excellent advertisement for the kilt and who can tell what converts you may have made without ever knowing about it. I apologise on behalf of some of my fellow-Scots for your unhappy experiences. There are also some of us who are trying very hard to improve matters.

[Tuirc]

@Jock I don't think anything was said by me indicating one or another group of people were good or not good. Whether you have DNA that traces you back to Scotland or no, you still could be a rat bastard or kinder than Ghandi. In any case it wasn't my point.

I think you were perfectly consistent with what Phil said and as I pointed out in my post this is in fact what I see mostly on these types of boards. Also as I pointed out, a perfectly unassailable position if that's where you choose to draw the line.

@Phil I'm not exactly sure where you're coming from. I'm sure your statement is validated by some experience. But, for my part, in case your statement is in some way a response to mine, I'm an American of Scottish descent. I don't hyphenate nor do I pretend to be a Scot. I'm not of Scottish descent by the neighbor of my great aunt Fanny. I'm of direct descent and have taken the time and effort to know exactly where in Scotland my ancestors lived and to some degree the circumstances and movements of them within Scotland back to 1590. And, further validated that knowledge with DNA. Having said that, that doesn't mean I know a fig about kilts or how to wear them. Therefore, I'm grateful for a forum like this where such knowledge transfer can take place. I also would place no claim on current day Scotland or even Scotland in the last two hundred years.

However, my ancestors were just as involved with the previous 1,200 years of Scottish history as yours (if yours have been there that long, certainly not claiming any knowledge of your background just assuming en arguendo that you have a long history there). So, just as I have family pride in my more recent ancestors and their deeds and accomplishments in the last two hundred years, I don't draw some artificial line and pretend that there was no "before immigration." There was, in fact, a before and that before was in Scotland and so I have pride in that fact too. When I wear my kilt, I'm acknowledging that I know where I come from and honoring that. That pride and those reasons stand apart from the current inhabitants of Scotland. They stand on their own and need no validation. Hopefully, my explanation will assist you in understanding to point of view of some of us, similarly situated in the diaspora. Or, maybe I'm all alone on my own island. I'm fine with that too.