lightweight tartan rejected

[flyrod6057]

The heavier, the better!

[RockyR]

I think several things are at play here. I'll lend my experience as a kilt company owner (and kiltmaker) for almost 10 years, having roughly 50 pipe bands on file that we currently outfit (I'm not at the office so I can't count to give you a firm accurate number):

The statement I think is the most accurate is OCR's second to last sentence: " Or maybe it's just a matter of liking what we're accustomed to, and all of us have been wearing 8 yard 16oz wool kilts our entire piping lives."

Roughly 5/8 to 2/3 of the bands we outfit have 13 or 16 oz 8 Yard Wool kilts. Wool is the most traditional choice for kilts (and therefore pipe bands). Roughly 1/4 of the bands get 5 yard wool kilts and the rest get Semi Traditional (11 - 12 oz PV) kilts. IMHO, several factors contribute to that:

1. Many bands are just starting and looking to outfit an entire band in 1 go. This can get very costly when you're talking about full outfits for the entire band. If pipes cost $800 MINIMUM (most are $1500+ for a decent set) and the outfit is $1000 + (much more if you're looking for military 'look'), that's a heck of an investment for the average member to make or for a band to make for 5, 10, 20 members.

2. Since there WERE less alternatives 30+ years ago, people just accepted that they had to spend the money on a band outfit or not join the band. I don't have any numbers to back up this next statement, but several older pipers have commented to me that there are more bands and more people joining bands in the last 10 - 15 years than there had been before. Not saying it's true or accurate, just relating what they've told me.

3. A MINOR factor, but one worth noting, is that several bands we service (probably 10 or so) are from southern US states. When many of them contacted us about providing kilts, they SPECIFICALLY asked for lower yardage, PV or 13 /11 oz wool kilts. As they are afraid of being too hot in 8 yard 16 oz wool kilts in Florida humidity, Texas heat, etc, they want a cooler option. WHETHER OR NOT that makes much of a temperature difference is another issue entirely... I'm just relaying what I've found.

4. From the bands we've serviced over the last 10 years, we've seen kilt qualities ranging from high quality to VERY poor. Some bands have much higher standards of what is 'acceptable' and what is not. Many of our bands are grade 5 or street bands (low level competition or not competitive at all). Generally speaking, a higher percentage of them will get PV or 5 Yard kilts. The bands that are more serious about their competitions (our grades 3 and 4 bands) and the bands that have more $$$ (funded by their FD or PD or city or have been around for a long time) tend to get the higher end, more expensive gear.

It boils down to weighing the options of how you want to look, how competitive you want to be and the financial options... the less money a band (or individual) has and less competitive a band is, GENERALLY the less they want to spend on the accessories.

If money was no object, I'm sure many more bands would get wool kilts. Since money IS an issue with many bands (especially NEW bands), they search for ways to keep the look, but trim the costs a bit.

I'm not saying that OCR's band doesn't feel the way they do or they don't have that right to make that decision or anything like that. I'm simply stating that my experience has been a bit different having dealt with the bands that we've dealt with, probably because we offer both lower priced and higher end traditional kilts. I'd also guess that a kiltmaker ONLY making traditional kilts would only supply bands who want their traditional wool kilts. In the same way, I'm surmise a kilt company that only sells low price import kilts will probably only supply bands looking for low price kilts. Customers tend to seek out the 'level of quality' that they can afford.

[Alan H]

In contrast, I know of only one "upper echelon - top 20" North American highland athlete in the last five years who wears a full-on wool kilt. That was Larry Brock, who retired at the end of the 2011 season. The OVERWHELMING favorite kilt among the athletes you see on the field at any North American highland games is Sportkilt. I would venture a guess that 70% of North American highland athletes wear Sportkilts.

The next most-worn...and this is *way* down in percentage points, is the Stillwater standard acrylic model.

I'm inviting 30 atheltes, more or less, to the Tartan Day event at Ardenwood this coming April. Here's the breakdown:

Open Mens A&B: seven sportkilts, one Stillwater, one full-on wool
Lightweight Mens and C class mens: six sportkilts, one home-made kilt, one unknown
Masters Men: Two wool, possibly wool-blend kilts, five sportkilts, one home-made
Womens class: six sportkilts, two unknown

[Geoff Withnell]

No USAK Casuals? I'm surprised.

In contrast, I know of only one "upper echelon - top 20" North American highland athlete in the last five years who wears a full-on wool kilt. That was Larry Brock, who retired at the end of the 2011 season. The OVERWHELMING favorite kilt among the athletes you see on the field at any North American highland games is Sportkilt. I would venture a guess that 70% of North American highland athletes wear Sportkilts.

The next most-worn...and this is *way* down in percentage points, is the Stillwater standard acrylic model.

I'm inviting 30 atheltes, more or less, to the Tartan Day event at Ardenwood this coming April. Here's the breakdown:

Open Mens A&B: seven sportkilts, one Stillwater, one full-on wool
Lightweight Mens and C class mens: six sportkilts, one home-made kilt, one unknown
Masters Men: Two wool, possibly wool-blend kilts, five sportkilts, one home-made
Womens class: six sportkilts, two unknown

[EagleJCS]

As a piper in Kentucky (where we get quite a range of temperature and humidity), I'm not at all surprised at seeing that the southern states pipe bands tend to go for lighter weight kilts. The Louisville Pipe Band wears 11/13 oz. wool kilts, and sometimes after a late spring or early fall event the liner around my waist is completely soaked through with perspiration when I get home & take my kilt off. (We generally take mid/late June and July off as it's too hot and humid out to kilt up.)

I'm also not at all suprised about Alan's experience that the athletes wear the less expensive poly/blend kilts. Were I to be participating in the heavy athletics I, too, would wear something that I'm not afraid to get dirty and/or tear that would clean up easily (washing machine) or be easily replaced.

[Alan H]

I "push" USA Kilts casuals pretty strongly to athletes, and a few have taken me up on it, but the culture just goes with SportKilts, and considering what we do, and what they guys/gals on the field are primarily into, it makes sense.

Maybe a quarter of these athletes also own very nice wool kilts, which they wear to more formal occasions. That' sjust a guess, it might be more like 10-15%. Most do not own nicer kilts.

[creagdhubh]

Bring forrit the proud swing of the heavyweight tartan!

[Domehead]

Interesting and considering the educated responses, perhaps understandable.
I wonder what the verdict would be if the "jury" was provided samples of 15/16oz fabric, but unconventional pleats - Kingussie, Box, Military Box?
I recognize these styles are not aesthetically delectable for contemporary piping. However, I'm genuinely curious.

[BBNC]

Well, this has been an interesting discussion so far! I just ordered my first kilt, a 10yd (I'm a big boy), knife-pleated, 16oz. wool; which I hope will hang, and move nicely. Not as expensive as some, more expensive than others.

[OC Richard]

Thanks Rocky for your "insider" views on things, as somebody who supplies band kilts.

I was surprised by this statement

Roughly 5/8 to 2/3 of the bands we outfit have 13 or 16 oz 8 Yard Wool kilts. Wool is the most traditional choice for kilts (and therefore pipe bands). Roughly 1/4 of the bands get 5 yard wool kilts and the rest get Semi Traditional (11 - 12 oz PV) kilts.

Because I have never knowingly seen, either here in the USA or over in Scotland, a band wear anything other than a full-yardage 13oz or 16oz handsewn wool kilt. I've been twice to the World Pipe Band Championships are there are over 200 pipe bands all, it appears, in traditional kilts.

But then this statement explained why:

The bands that are more serious about their competitions... tend to get the higher end, more expensive gear.

I have spent over 35 years in the pipe band competition scene, and all my experience as to how pipe bands dress come from that "scene". I've had no interactions with the noncompetition band scene.

Traditionalism is very strong in the competition scene as regards kilts. For example when Utilikilts blew onto the Highland Games scene, competition pipers universally turned up their noses at them. The higher-level competition scene is strongly tied to traditional kiltmakers like Elsie Stuehmayer and traditional outfitters such as Lochcarron and House of Edgar.

Another thing that's operating in the pipe band scene is that the world's top bands lead the way not only with their music but also with their dress. All the serious competition Grade 4 through Grade 2 bands tend to follow the dress standard set by the "big boys", the Grade 1 bands. (There is no Grade 5 in Scotland, nor in most of the piping world.)

Just yesterday our Pipe Major was saying how he was watching video of Field Marshal Montgomery play and how much he liked the look of the pleats on their kilts, the large number of small pleats. He doesn't know anything about kiltmaking (how yardage effects the number and width of pleats) but he knows that he likes the way the "big boys" look. Here they are:



One point that shouldn't be overlooked is that when pipe bands compete they do so in a circle with their backs facing the audience; therefore it's the BACK of the kilts which are seen most of the time, and pleating is of paramount importance. A serious competition band couldn't show up wearing 5 yard kilts without it being noticed by all the "old hands".

Jock Scot has often talked about the way that social norms function in Scotland, how certain things are "just not done", and that operates in the competition pipe band scene. I can tell you that if a band showed up at a competition wearing nontraditional kilts, be they Utilikilts or 4-yard kilts or kilts made from fabric that was obviously thin and flimsy, neither the judges nor the other bands would take them seriously. The impact of a band's dress on competition has been debated within the pipe band scene, but the reality is that all serious bands dress more or less alike due to the unwritten strictures of the piping community.

Anyhow at our little pipe band gathering all of this became very clear, as the kilt with a lighter weight was rejected by all the "old hands".