Clan affiliation question

**creagdhubh** · 14th January 13, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by TheOfficialBren

Thanks, ThistleDown. I am leaning toward Shaw and universals tartans. I would wear Chattan but I'd rather have a more subdued version. I don't really care for orange or other bright colours. I prefer deep, rich, or muted/weathered tartans.

I wish Shaw wasn't considered a "rare" tartan (as per several reputable kiltmakers websites). It'll be a while before I spring for that one.

Thank you for your advice, Sir.

The Chattan tartan in a reproduction/weathered colour scheme is always an option as well! The Shaw of Tordarroch is quite a handsome sett too. I second Rex's suggestion and would go with a heavyweight fabric such as Lochcarron Strome, or something comparable from other mills (D.C. Dalgliesh is another good source).

Cheers,

**TheOfficialBren** · 14th January 13, 04:52 PM

Awesome! Thanks, Rex and Kyle.

BTW, you mentioned that the chief of Clan Shaw is the chief of Clan Ay. What is the background behind that?

**ThistleDown** · 14th January 13, 09:01 PM

How many hours have you, Bren? In a thread, the progenitor of the Tordarroch branch of the clan Shaw (Anglicisation of 'Sheach') was Aodh (Ay), younger brother of Alasdair 'Ciar' Mackintosh of Rothiemurchus and grandson of Shaw Mor, who led the Clan Ha (Chattan) at the Battle on the North Inch of Perth in the late 14C. After his father's death in 1411 at Harlaw, Ay was taken into the protection of his kinsman, Malcom Beg, 10th chief of Mackintosh, at Moy. In that century Mackintosh gave the tenancy of the Tordarroch lands in Strathnairn to Ay's son or grandson, and from them came the Shaws of Tordarroch, chiefs of Clan Ay.

Some photos for you:

Shaw Mor's grave in Rothiemurchus

The present Moy is at the north end of Loch Moy but pretty well everything you see in the pic was Mackintosh's in Malcolm's day, and everything to the left of Loch Moy and away to the hills is still Mackintosh. The village at that time was on the island in the left foreground.

Tordarroch House. This isn't my pic, but I can't seem to get any of mine to copy for you. In any case, this is Tordarroch House as it is today. The tower is 20th century. In the background is a hill that has been tested and was probably the site of the Earl of Moray's hangings of several Clan Chattan chieftains in 1543. This has again passed out of Shaw ownership.

**TheOfficialBren** · 14th January 13, 10:33 PM

Wow! Rex, your knowledge really impresses me! Have heard stories about North Inch Perth in 1396, and of Sir James Shaw who fell at Harlaw in 1411, though the Chattans (Shaws included) won the day.

Was the grating on ShawvMor's grave installed at the time of his burial or afterward? I came across another story of a Shaw chief being buried underneath a church floor where his enemy prayed regularly and that his enemy stamped on the floor to make sure he was still buried (apparently Shaw's body was stolen thrice and hanged outside his house to frighten his household). From what I gather, even his enemy was offended by the indignity and had Shaw reburied in his chapel.

Are the Shaws a landless clan, then? I know that our history has been a modest one, not like the Campbells, MacDonalds, or Douglases I have also read that there are connections to MacDuff and MacDonald, through a martiage between a daughter of the MacDonald chief.

Sorry for rambling. In America we are a bit geneologically challenged with people so ancient. Those within Scotland, or indeed any 'old' country are fortunate enough to live in and around the very fabric of that history.

Thanks humbly, again, ThistleDown.

**ThistleDown** · 15th January 13, 12:49 PM

Actually the Shaw who died at Harlaw was called James Mackintosh, not Shaw, and was not knighted. The battle itself was probably indecisive. Although a smaller number (about 900 is a good estimate) of the Lord of the Isles' contingent died than did Mar's, Macdonald was obliged to return to the Isles and leave the Earldom of Ross to be occupied by his adversary.

About 25 or 30 years ago four carved stones standing on the corners of Shaw Mor's grave were stolen. They were recovered a year or so later and the grating installed to protect them, and the slab, in the future. I've not heard the story of the burial under the church floor, but wonder if this obvious myth might have evolved from the tithe barn executions of the mid-1500s. Excavations years ago did produce evidence that the executed were simply buried in the barn.

The connection to MacDuff is the Mackintosh origin and there were several marriages of Mackintoshes, Shaws and others of Clan Chattan with Macdonalds. Yes, for the time being the Shaw chief does not have lands in the Highlands although his daughter is Baroness Newhall in her own right through her grandmother.

**WClarkB** · 15th January 13, 12:55 PM

If you want to get completely bemused at the strength of clan kinship in the Borders (which at times impacted as far west as Kirkcudbright) read GM Fraser's Steel Bonnets.

**TheOfficialBren** · 15th January 13, 07:04 PM

Interesting, Rex. Thank you for the info. It sounds like Highland tories are as embellished as Old West stories. Case-in-point, the shootout at the O. K. Corral was a minor engagement in a small enclosure among two small groups of thugs that lasted all of 45 seconds or so and only a few shots were fired. By the time the newspapers and dime novelists grabbed ahold of it they had made Wyatt Earp into a "hero" and the shootout into a "battle."

:-)