flashes and their length

[The farqcom]

Interesting topic. Since "upgrading" to more "traditional" garter ties vs the flat elastic-mounted ribbon/trimmed tartan variety, I tend to follow Matt's example and have just the fringed portion of the tie exposed. If I do wear the other style, I expose about half the length. Seems to work well, hose turn down length means a slight variation on the theme of course, along with personal preference. Listing to the on duty fashion adviser always proves sound

[imrichmond]

It appears to me that, surprisingly, the Balmoral piper is wearing hose that are simply too short for him, which explains the very narrow turnover and a large part of the excessive length of the flashes. The wide, unpatterned expanse between the top of the uppermost red diamond and the bottom of the cuff is a clear indication that these hose were made for someone considerably shorter. The white diamond of the turnover should be sitting just above the red diamond so that the pattern is continuous from the top of the cuff to the shoe.

[Jock Scot]

It appears to me that, surprisingly, the Balmoral piper is wearing hose that are simply too short for him, which explains the very narrow turnover and a large part of the excessive length of the flashes. The wide, unpatterned expanse between the top of the uppermost red diamond and the bottom of the cuff is a clear indication that these hose were made for someone considerably shorter. The white diamond of the turnover should be sitting just above the red diamond so that the pattern is continuous from the top of the cuff to the shoe.

I suspect the piper is doing his best with the hose that he was issued with. However, from my civilian Scots point of view his hose tops are at a perfect height. This idea that the hose tops should end at, or just a tad below the bottom of the knee cap seems to be a modern idea and to my mind looks dreadful. I wonder and I suspect that much of the modern kilt hose are made longer these days?

[Jock Scot]

The thing is that a military uniform is all about uniformity and civilian dress is all about traditional style. It seems to me that length and position of self-tied flashes is fashion; today it is peeking, whereas I recall a time when we wore them longer. I don't think that had anything to do with the cuff depth, just a fashion trend. Perhaps the rebellion of youth. Jock, I do recall once being told to straighten my seams, but that came from a relative I was always fearful of offending, a very powerful woman who loved to command and terrify little boys. My seams have been perfectly lined up ever since.

Ah yes the seams! More by accident than design, I seemed to have got that bit right. Almost everything else seemed to raise a comment more often than not though, from just about everyone. Happy days!

[imrichmond]

I suspect the piper is doing his best with the hose that he was issued with. However, from my civilian Scots point of view his hose tops are at a perfect height. This idea that the hose tops should end at, or just a tad below the bottom of the knee cap seems to be a modern idea and to my mind looks dreadful. I wonder and I suspect that much of the modern kilt hose are made longer these days?

Yes, I quite agree that he is doing his best with the hose he has. The point of my posting was to show that, in order to get his hose tops at the proper height, he has had to do violence to the argyll pattern and make the cuffs much narrower than they would be on properly fitting hose. Obviously, if he had turned down the cuffs to where they were intended to be, i.e. wide enough to continue the pattern, the hose would have looked ridiculously short on him. I fully agree that many kilt wearers nowadays wear their hose far too high (and their kilts too long), but that's not the problem with the Balmoral piper's hose.

[Jock Scot]

Yes, I quite agree that he is doing his best with the hose he has. The point of my posting was to show that, in order to get his hose tops at the proper height, he has had to do violence to the argyll pattern and make the cuffs much narrower than they would be on properly fitting hose. Obviously, if he had turned down the cuffs to where they were intended to be, i.e. wide enough to continue the pattern, the hose would have looked ridiculously short on him. I fully agree that many kilt wearers nowadays wear their hose far too high (and their kilts too long), but that's not the problem with the Balmoral piper's hose.

Oh I quite agree. I take your point entirely.

[ThistleDown]

Ah yes the seams! More by accident than design, I seemed to have got that bit right. Almost everything else seemed to raise a comment more often than not though, from just about everyone. Happy days!

Hmm yes, there were other things, too, I recall. She used to tug my tie into a tighter knot and tighter to my neck, too. Nasty old woman, but I wear my tie snugged now all these years later.

As for hose tops, Jock, just another of the things we do because we've always done them, I think. You brought it up so I checked mine. Both at the same height and that seems to be more than two fingers below that boney protrusion at the top of the tibia. That places them more than a hands-width below my kneecap itself. I know my father wore them lower, but I think that was his regiment's fashion.

[OC Richard]

The traditional kilt flashes, whether made for the army or for civilian use, are usually around 5" long give or take. If you have the elastic up to where the socks turn over, how much flash shows is a byproduct of how deep the cuffs are.

I have hose with very deep cuffs and very little of the flashes show with those, and I have hose with narrow cuffs and quite a bit of the flashes show with those.

About the dress of the Army, the nice thing is that the Army tends to retain older manners of wearing things, and one of these is having more knee showing than you usually see nowadays with civilian dress. This is both a function of wearing the kilt higher so that the entire kneecap shows, and a function of wearing the top of the hose a bit lower. I don't think that Royal piper has his hose too short: it's the way you usually see them both in old photos and in the Army.

This excellent photo shows several Pipe Majors, who along with a Drum Major are in complete agreement that the tops of the hose shouldn't be pulled right up to the knee



and, by the way, since those military hosetops have a narrow cuff, quite a bit of the flashes are visible.

Now back in the 1840s and 1850s there was a fashion for huge elaborate flashes with rosettes or bows as you can see here in 1852 with the 79th Foot



But photos of members of The Black Watch taken in 1855 show ordinary flashes worn under the cuffs of the hose.

[creagdhubh]

Length of our flashes/ties in CIVILIAN kilt matters is absolutely a personal choice of that there is no argument. Where I think possibly some get led astray is taking "dress" hints from military uniform pictures, which has nothing, should have nothing anyway, to do with our CIVILIAN dress decisions. Civilian pipe band matters of dress do muddy the waters a tad, but really even civilian pipe bands wear uniforms and as such they should be not really considered in your "dress" choices.

I don't know about anyone else here, but my intention is to avoid the "windsock" effect, but I make no exact measurements, so it does depend on the hose on the particular day, turn down length, hose length, position of the moon,speed of dressing and whether attention is paid to it all in the first place. So at a guess, I doubt if my flashes are ever the same length from one day to the next. But I do try to avoid them being too long.

***

Well put, Jock and my sentiments as well.

As to the the question posed by the OP, I like how both HRH Prince Charles and HM's Piper are dressed, though you must keep in mind, they are both very different forms of Highland dress.

Here are what my flashes look whilst wearing 'Argyll' style tartan hose with my Highland evening attire. The turnover is not as wide (or as long for the matter) as the hose I wear with Highland day attire, thus exposing the flashes considerably more, which I tend to like with the style of hose shown (the same applies to diced hose).


Here are what my flashes (sometimes garter ties) look whilst wearing plain hose with my Highland day attire. The majority of the flashes are hidden from sight, with only the very bottom "flashes" of colour exposed from underneath the turnover. A quintessential look of HRH Prince Charles, and one in which I am very fond of as well.


Cheers,

[Macman]

If I may, Kyle: here are two perfect examples of argyll pattern hose folded over so the patterns match.