New Kilt/Dilemma - Part 2

**Father Bill** · 25th June 13, 07:13 AM

Originally Posted by adempsey10

Agreed, a tartan can certainly be a very meaningful symbol for someone. But we must always remember, that to someone else, it may mean nothing. It is only when we fallaciously attempt to force the meaning on other people, do we get into trouble.

Ah, but that's not forcing a meaning on anyone. It's asking them to respect us in the meaning it has to us.

**adempsey10** · 25th June 13, 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by Father Bill

Ah, but that's not forcing a meaning on anyone. It's asking them to respect us in the meaning it has to us.

But that is, in a way, forcing the meaning on someone. Cf. my analogy of the cow in my earlier post. Following your logic, no one should eat cow because the cow is sacred to certain people. You are, in effect, showing disrespect to those people every time you eat a steak.

**Father Bill** · 25th June 13, 07:25 AM

Originally Posted by adempsey10

But that is, in a way, forcing the meaning on someone. Cf. my analogy of the cow in my earlier post. Following your logic, no one should eat cow because the cow is sacred to certain people. You are, in effect, showing disrespect to those people every time you eat a steak.

I eat steak privately. I wear tartan publicly. We mustn't gloss over subtle details or we show that we don't understand the nature of symbols for what they are at all. Steak is not a symbol to all people. Even those who don't respect a flag recognize that it's a symbol. Having said that, I don't think I'd order a steak in India or knowingly serve it to those who respect it as a symbol.

**Liam** · 25th June 13, 07:31 AM

Sometimes it is better to ask for forgiveness that for permission!

**Father Bill** · 25th June 13, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by Liam

Sometimes it is better to ask for forgiveness that for permission!

Better? Easier.

**adempsey10** · 25th June 13, 07:34 AM

Originally Posted by Father Bill

I eat steak privately. I wear tartan publicly. We mustn't gloss over subtle details or we show that we don't understand the nature of symbols for what they are at all. Steak is not a symbol to all people. Even those who don't respect a flag recognize that it's a symbol. Having said that, I don't think I'd order a steak in India or knowingly serve it to those who respect it as a symbol.

I disagree with some of your premises, though I do understand where you are coming from. And at that, I must get back to packing boxings or my wife will not be happy when she gets home.

I just noticed that your location is London, ON. I will be moving there on Thursday. We should discuss this and other such intellectual matters over a pint or a single malt, sometime. Cheers.

**creagdhubh** · 25th June 13, 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by adempsey10

I disagree with some of your premises, though I do understand where you are coming from. And at that, I must get back to packing boxings or my wife will not be happy when she gets home.

I just noticed that your location is London, ON. I will be moving there on Thursday. We should discuss this and other such intellectual matters over a pint or a single malt, sometime. Cheers.

Excellent way to conclude here, mate. The conversation between you and Father Bill was polite, mature, gentlemanly and tactful. Well done to both of you and best of luck with your move. Hopefully you and Father Bill will indeed have the opportunity to discuss this topic in greater detail over a pint or perhaps a wee dram.

Cheers,

**Father Bill** · 25th June 13, 03:17 PM

Comin' ta London? A pint indeed wi' twa o' us in town!

**freddie** · 27th June 13, 11:59 PM

A search for King George V1 on the Tartans of Scotland website shows the OP's kilt tartan and states 'Royal Family tartan'. So I guess that says it all.

**English Bloke** · 28th June 13, 04:06 AM

Frayed knot Freddie.

Peter MacDonald, esteemed tartan historian and Head of Research for the Scottish Tartans Authority said this about the tartan (on another thread)

Originally Posted by figheadair

... so the facts:

1. The original King George VI was designed at the King's request by Royal Warrant Holders Wm Anderson, George Street, Edinburgh, it gave him an exclusive tartan to wear which was different from Royal Stewart.

2. That design is #5845 and is sometimes (incorrectly) referred to as Green Stewart.

3. The origins of the Princess Mary (#5449) is a little less certain but probably originated at the same time and in fact was almost certainly another name for the KGVI which, as others have mentioned, is but a slightly different setting and that doesn't make it a different tartan in my book.

4. The production and sale of the original KGVI is restricted by Royal request. There is no legal protect for this design and it has been woven commercially in the past in much the same way as the Balmoral has. Notwithstanding the Palace's letter, legally it's not possible to stop someone from wearing anything if they choose, including the Balmoral.

5. There have been a number of commercial variations of the KGVI including the one referred to in the OP. Without legal protection of a design it's impossible to prevent variations on a theme being sold and even called by the same name.

6. This one is similar to but is not #1484.It differs in having the black reduced the guards on the yellow and blue stripes and what should be the larger black next to the red is green in this setting. The photo doesn’t blow up to well but a working count is:
R/4 G80 K4 Y8 K4 B8 K4 G10 R12 K4 R4 W/3 – half pivots.

7. This new variant has been entered into the STA Db as #8496 and named King George VI - 1981 (Error) .

8. And now the important bit. As this is a Trade variation and especially as it departs from the original by having a red stripe centred on the green making it technically different, the letter from the Palace cannot apply and there can be no restriction on its use.

So no matter how much we'd all like it to be, it isn't the King's tartan. It's a lookey-likey, although it does now have it's own STA Db ref.