Traditonal vs. Historical

[Hopper250]

IMNSHO, not a typo. A typo is like when you type "Unbifercated" instead of "Unbifurcated".

Typing "Modern" instead of "Male" (a totally different word) is not a typing error.

It is a typo. A typo made by my brain. Some would call it a Freudian Slip, but it has non of the sexual connotation that term commonly implies. Thus "typo".


Still going to say MKAT is a good term.

[davidlpope]

The word Contemporary was coined by me to describe my product. A modern kilt that still retains the internal structure needed for good looks, swish and life. Contemporary refers to how the kilt is made, not the fabric it is made from. Contemporary refers to an evolution from the traditional made kilt.

Which other kiltmaker's kilts fall into this category? 21st Century Kilts? Paul Henry's?

[Grizzly]

As far as I am aware all of Pauls Kilts are made in the traditional way, with built in stabilisers, hair canvas, steeking etc etc . However he would be the first person to say that not all of his kilts are made with traditional tartan fabric. Denim and Cotton, instantly spring to mind. I would say that these non tartan kilts are traditional kilts but in a contemporary style.

I know Paul is perfectly capable of answering for himself, but I am aware that he is currently on holiday so may not be able to reply at this moment.

[David Thorpe]

However David,

I can wear a traditional kilt (Clan tartan) at hip level, dropped below my knees, with an untucked t-shirt, sandals, no hose, and a nylon sporron.

Where would that fall into THCD? As it is for certain not a MUG.

Short answer - it wouldn't. One can wear a traditional kilt in many decidedly non-traditional ways as has already been discussed in this and many other threads. Please note that I did not suggest that one should do so.

[Hopper250]

Short answer - it wouldn't. One can wear a traditional kilt in many decidedly non-traditional ways as has already been discussed in this and many other threads. Please note that I did not suggest that one should do so.

And there is no need for it to be. Should is an opinion and a valid one, however we are caught up on THCD.We only look at whether a tartan is worn in THCD. Rather we should look at how modern fashion can affect kilt wearing also. MKAT (Modern Kilt Attire in Tartan) would cover that. After all we have guys on the forum who wear tartan kilts but don't fit the THCD every time.

Wearing sandals with a tartan kilt and a t-shirt are fine, looks great in the pictures I've seen. They are MKAT outfits and the new term allows for a different conversation about them. "You pull off the untucked MKAT well. I don't think I could." Rather than, "That's not THCD, it looks good though." The tone is more positive IMO.

Just my thoughts.

[Nathan]

And there is no need for it to be. Should is an opinion and a valid one, however we are caught up on THCD.We only look at whether a tartan is worn in THCD. Rather we should look at how modern fashion can affect kilt wearing also. MKAT (Modern Kilt Attire in Tartan) would cover that. After all we have guys on the forum who wear tartan kilts but don't fit the THCD every time.

Wearing sandals with a tartan kilt and a t-shirt are fine, looks great in the pictures I've seen. They are MKAT outfits and the new term allows for a different conversation about them. "You pull off the untucked MKAT well. I don't think I could." Rather than, "That's not THCD, it looks good though." The tone is more positive IMO.

Just my thoughts.

I see where you're going here with MKAT as I have been known to wear modern street attire with my tartan kilt. I was especially fond of this look when I was fronting a Celtic Rock band. My look was a hybrid of Celtic and Rock fashion since my music was a hybrid of Celtic and Rock sounds. I was young and wanted to bridge my culture to my fellow youth. I also see your desire for a more positive spin on critical comments. That said, we can't ask or expect everyone to be positive about everything. Some people look rather negatively upon such fashion choices and view them as a denigration of a venerated tradition. Others, especially older gents tend to think street fashion is slovenly and the sign of someone who does not take pride in their appearance.

I for one am not a fan of demanding everything be sugar coated. Are we that fragile? If someone's comments are boorish or rude rather than tactful and diplomatic, it will reflect poorly upon the person making the comment in the eyes of some. While I agree that decorum is ideal there are regional and generational differences in wit and manners and so it won't hurt for us all to be a little more thick skinned as well.

Regarding the MKAT acronym, I think it's problematic. A tweed jacket or a button down shirt is traditional but is also certainly modern. These garments are made and sold by and for modern people and are not period pieces. They aren't old fashion, they are simply dressier than a t-shirt in our modern times. So the word "modern" strikes me as not quite what you're after.

I'm by no means wedded to these suggestions, but perhaps I could suggest:

TKSW - Tartan Kilted Street Wear, BAWK - Bumming around whilst kilted, TKAG - Tartan Kilt Anything Goes, NSTKA - New School Tartan Kilt Attire, UCTKA - Ultra Casual Tartan Kilt Attire

[Hopper250]

I'm by no means wedded to these suggestions, but perhaps I could suggest:

TKSW - Tartan Kilted Street Wear, BAWK - Bumming around whilst kilted, TKAG - Tartan Kilt Anything Goes, NSTKA - New School Tartan Kilt Attire, UCTKA - Ultra Casual Tartan Kilt Attire

I like the TKSW. It covers what I was thinking and is short enough to be managable. We don't want to turn in the an Alphabet Soup area .

I don't think we need to sugar coat everything either, there is however a level of polite that can be used even when expressing disgust. For example, "Hopper, I find your style of dress to be slobbish and somewhat disturbing. I suggest hose and shoes rather than the boots to improve the look." As opposed to "Hopper, you need to get rid of the boots because you shouldn't wear them with a kilt."

(Of course this is predicated on the idea that I'm not wearing "cowboy boots" and looking like a teenage girl in Texas. In which case "Lose the boots you look like a girl." would be perfectly acceptable.)

The first isn't sugar coated but I wouldn't call it rude. The second I would call rude. Just my thoughts on that part.

[CMcG]

Originally, this thread was about traditional vs. historical kilt attire, but somehow we've ended up talking about contemporary outfits with traditional (looking) kilts... it is an exaggeration to suggest that we "never" talk about non-traditional looks using tartan kilts. It does happen every now and again, but the discussion tends to be a lot shorter when the prevailing attitude is "wear what you like" and "there are no rules."

THCD, on the other hand, gives us a lot more to talk about. Those discussions can range from the minutiae of kilt height to the esoteric rules of white tie formality and, thanks to it being a practice not a uniform, there is seemingly endless variation to parse. Furthermore, a lot of our members link the kilt to Scottish (or at least Celtic) identity, which typically fosters an interest in heritage and tradition.

To bring this back to tradition vs. history, the general look of day wear or formal wear today is quite similar to what it was 100 years ago, but tendencies have shifted. That is to say, within the range of available options, things have gradually moved to a more stripped down look, though the elaborations of yesteryear are still available. Hair sporrans, full mask sporrans, diced/argyle/tartan hose, and buckle brogues are still around, but perhaps not quite as common as they were in 1913. Dirks are seen even less. On the other side, I estimate more people are wearing plain tweed kilt jackets (without fancy cuffs or epaulettes) or even just a shirt with or without a sweater.

While there might be more to talk about with day wear or formal THCD, it is entirely possible to wear the kilt as THCD without heaping on every special accessory. It is also possible to do so in a more casual way. Traditional modes of dress tend to be more formal, but there is room these days for a more relaxed style.

Let's have some examples, shall we? I consider all the following pictures to be THCD, but I hope to show a bit of the continuum between contemporary and historical within tradition, without going into modern or reenactment.

Black tie, contemporary end of traditional. This would be even better if I have a plainer jacket:


Black tie, historical end of traditional. This would be even better if I added buckle brogues:


Smart day wear, historical end of traditional. Good for a wedding then and now, 1913 standard for even a trip to the pub:


Casual day wear, contemporary end of traditional. Not dressed up enough for a typical wedding, but more suited to 2013 at the pub (no offence intended to those who still wear a jacket and tie when out for pints ):

[Hopper250]

Casual day wear, contemporary end of traditional. Not dressed up enough for a wedding, but more suited to 2013 at the pub (no offence intended to those who still wear a jacket and tie when out for pints ):

Where I like this picture would be dressed up for a wedding. Members of the Wedding Party and Parents are the only ones who need to dress up more. As an example I wore a shortsleeve button down and jeans to a wedding this month. I was the least dressed of my family (in-laws) but I was better dressed than everyone under the age of 60. That I could wear exactly what I wear to work every day to a wedding is typical and an American thing, I think. I'm going to a wedding in Germany in September and I'll be wearing a suit.

The fact that we don't spend time discussing casual outfits and many posts are either "do whatever" or "I don't care its not for me", is a detriment. We should spend time discussing them and showing them off. Over all there seems to be a reluctance to show the photos because those are the responces. We need more examples and discussion on the TKSW to keep newer members like me around. That ties to the Tradition vs Historical aspect of the thread because both have a hightened focus here, this is useful, when the rest is ignored we loose out.

[davidlpope]

I think TKAG is the best of the bunch, but with this caveat: (Traditional Kilt, Anything Goes). That way an Irish saffron tank, worn with a Dropkick Murphys t-shirt, green scrunched socks and Doc Martins would qualify.

It also makes clear in the title that "there are no rules or kilt kops". If you ever get hassled by one of us THCD guys you can immediately reply (with Cole Porter sassiness) "Anything Goes!"...