The ideal time for the black argyll

[Nathan]

First of all welcome to xmarks, from Inverness-shire.

It is sometimes, very difficult to explain to those that are not used to civilian kilt attire on an almost daily basis and for too many years to even want to remember, but with civilian kilt attire, it is very difficult to compare exact equivalents when comparing it with "Saxon attire". It can and is done, but with kilt attire many start from the wrong place with their comparisons. Let me try to explain.

There is really no exact comparison to the "saxon" sports jacket with kilt attire. The TWEED argyll is actually the kilt equivalent of a suit. I suppose in the olden days, the beaten up, thirty year old, much repaired, threadbare and much loved tweed argyll might have fitted in as a "kilt sports jacket" and I suppose these days a smart pullover(sweater) probably fits the kilt sports jacket role when compared to the "saxon" sports jacket equivalent.

The black barathea, silver buttoned argyll(BBSBA) is, first and foremost, the kilt equivalent of the "saxon" morning coat(formal day wear). Although these days(yes, there is minor historical evidence to support this too), many do wear the BBSBA very successfully for minor black tie events where others are wearing a dinner suit(tux).

Do we need a BBSBA in the wardrobe? Well no, if, IF, you have a smart pullover,or beaten up tweed argyll jacket(sports jacket equivalent), a decent tweed argyll( lounge/business suit equivalent) of almost any hue and a PC, Sherriffmuir(black tie etc..), or some such in the wardrobe for formal evening attire AND you have no need(requirement) for a formal day jacket.

Thanks so much for this post, Jock, I was waiting for you to weigh in. On the subject of the decent tweed being a lounge suit equivalent, I just wanted your insight on a conundrum that flows from that premise.

A high quality, dark business/lounge suit with a crisp white shirt and long tie is perfectly acceptable attire for a groom in a daytime wedding here and has been for quite some time. Would a tweed argyll ever be considered similarly appropriate attire for the wedding party in an indoor or church wedding in the Highlands? I ask this because I think your first point that perfect parallels with saxon dress are problematic is correct.

Having been raised with the "no brown in town" edict regarding tweed but then repeatedly hearing your view that tweed is regarded as a business suit equivalent in a Highland setting, I wanted to see how far this equivalency stretches.

[Jock Scot]

Nathan.

I am trying to think of a short reply to your question and I don't think there is one! So I am going to start with a picture or two for you to bear in mind as I proceed.



This(above) is the basic format for Highland wedding kilt attire in the Highlands , for the locals. The groom will be dressed thus, as will the best man and many of the male guests. These days with the world getting smaller, the groom, best man and some guests from affar may wear a suit, or they may hire kilt attire. I am afraid to say that the kilt hire companies do a huge dis-service to the kilt, the Highlands, the customer and the world at large. I call it "the uncaring hiring to the unknowing" and its disasterous ramifications for propper kilt attire goes worldwide aided hugely by the internet as the pictures carry no health warning.

A formal wedding---------


---requires formal kilt day attire(minus the bonnet usually).



Part two will follow when I have thought more about the wording of it.

[saxandpipes]

Very nice to have your input, and illustrations on the subject, Jock! (and others!)

Cheers,

Michael

[Jock Scot]

Nathan(part 2).

I think it would really help for you and others to divorce completely your Saxon clothing traditions and thoughts from traditional kilt attire traditions and thoughts. The "no brown in town" type thoughts are not helpful and bear no relevence to kilt attire. Until and unless that divorce is made you will always agonise over your kilt attire choices. We are not comparing apples with apples here, think more of apples and marrows!If an event occurs where you are having to make appropriate choices that seem to agree, then just regard the assorted clothing culture choices as a mere happenstance.

So when for example, a black tie event turns up and if you are going to wear the kilt then perhaps a PC and assorted attire will be your choice dont worry about comparing what the saxon team are wearing! Once you have the various kilt attire options mastered,then and only then can you consider the "no brown in town" with complete confidence and distain. Only when you have arrived at this point can you start to compare kilt attire and saxon attire together. Yes, when giving advice it is helpful to know what kind of event you are going to, so when you know that its not going to be a formal wedding then you know with kilt attire the tweed argyll will be the choice.

Out of interest, I can only think of perhaps ten members here out of the thousands that belong here who can move seemlessly from one dress culture to the other. Its not surprising really when we think about it. There are two completely different dress cultures that have developed in their own way and meshing them together is always going to be less than easy, unless both attire conventions are fully understood and the realisation prevails that both conventions do not follow the same course even though sometimes, but not always, they end up in the same place!

Another couple of pictures for you to consider. Had I been wearing trousers then I would certainly be wearing a sports jacket, as I am wearing the kilt then I am wearing a pullover--------kilt sports jacket equivalent!

Jock in the office. Where I am now, typing this, I am at present wearing trousers and guess what? I am wearing a sports jacket!

[McMurdo]

Jock I could not agree more, at my own wedding I wore a tweed jacket waistcoat and tie. As for the other outfit shown that is perfect for so many occasions from going to the shops to the office. Thanks for the photos.

[Spartan Tartan]

Nathan(part 2).

I think it would really help for you and others to divorce completely your Saxon clothing traditions and thoughts from traditional kilt attire traditions and thoughts. The "no brown in town" type thoughts are not helpful and bear no relevence to kilt attire.

Spot on. Best advice. A hardy PLUS ONE to this.

[Highlander31]

---requires formal kilt day attire(minus the bonnet usually).

Jock, I'm curious about the color of your jacket and waistcoat. On my monitor, it's difficult to tell whether they are charcoal or black. I'm leaning towards black, since the color is close to the top of that beautiful vintage automobile behind you.

[Jock Scot]

Black is the colour of the jacket and waistcoat, although having just got out of the car in fairly heavy rain the jacket may well have a sort of "raindrop sheen" on it that might make it look a tad more grey than it really is.

[Nathan]

Thanks very much for the reply, Jock. It was succinct, comprehensive and much appreciated.

This pretty much corresponds to how I perceive the levels of dress. Since I live in Canada, I take the artistic license to adapt things a little to my audience. I personally wouldn't feel comfortable being married in tweed over here nor would I feel comfortable attending a funeral in lovat green or a bold check argyll. I'd want to go a little more subdued. Please understand that I'm not challenging your conclusions on the matter. I'm just accounting for how it will be perceived since most of the Torontonians looking at me will not experts in Highland attire. For this reason, it's good that I have options like the BBSBA and my charcoal worsted Argyll with leather buttons for those occasions when tweed might be perceived locally as a bit too unrefined for the occasion.

So for me, I'd probably wear this or my BBSBA to a wedding or a funeral:





I wouldn't require the saxon attired folks to be in morning coats to feel this was the right call, but rather, just dark suits. If I lived in Fort William, I'd probably be more comfortable in tweed for such occasions.

I wore this to a political convention where everyone was in suits:



For family visits and dinners this xmas season, nobody was in a sports jacket, because everyone was kilted, but we felt pullovers were appropriate for the occasion. At one brother's place, it was ties at the other's open collars.







Once again, Jock, it's great to have the perspective of a local Highlander to guide us along. Happy Holidays to you and Mrs. Jock Scot.

[Father Bill]

Nathan has hit on something that's very important: it's necessary to not only be correct, but to be seen to be correct through the eyes and customs about us less we give a less than stellar impression of kiltwearing. Sometimes that means conforming to the norms about us, much as in Scotland one must conform to the norms about.