Please help identify my family coat of arms

[anguilla1980]

According to what I found in my ancestry tree, this is the only "Scrymgeour" that shows up:

Matilda Scrymgeour married John Graham "of Balargus"

Their son was John Graham "of Balargus 1st of Claverhouse"

That is who John Graham "1st Viscount Dundee 7th of Claverhouse" is directly descended from which explains why he used that coat of arms.

I must have missed that before when I searched my .GED file. I don't have records of Matilda's birth of death or who her parents where though.

[anguilla1980]

Ok Here is an updated image with some color added. Any corrections to what I may have colored incorrectly?

Why the 2 helms? Why the large crown in the middle?

[anguilla1980]

Disputed chiefship:

John Scrymgeour died in 1668 without issue and his castles, estates and royal offices were seized upon a legal pretext by the Duke of Lauderdale. The Duke had sent soldiers to carry off all of the Scrymgeour's papers and charter and then declared that there was no lawful heir and the estates were reverted to the Crown. The Duke then gained from the king a grant to the titles and estates that he then gave to his own brother, Lord Chattan. The estates later passed to John Graham, 1st Viscount Dundee who was killed at the Battle of Killiecrankie in 1689. The estates were then forfeited and passed to the Douglases.

Upon the death of the earl, the estates should have gone to John Scrymgeour of Kirkton who was the great-grandson of the fifth constable of Dundee. Scrymgeour of Kirkton's grandson was David Scrymgeour, sheriff of Inverness who married Catherine, daughter of Alexander Wedderburn of Wedderburn. Their son assumed the surname Scrymgeour-Wedderburn and succeeded to the Wedderburn estates. However the Wedderburns continued to assert their right to the ancient titles and honours of their Scrymgeour ancestors. At the coronation off Edward VII, Henry Scrymgeour-Wedderburn carried the standard of Scotland. His grandson, another Henry Scrymgeour-Wedderburn was recognized as eleventh Earl of Dundee by the House of Lords. The eleventh earl's son is Alexander Scrymgeour, 12th Earl of Dundee, the present chief of Clan Scrymgeour.


John Graham, 1st Viscount Dundee:

John Graham of Claverhouse, 1st Viscount Dundee, known as the 7th Laird of Claverhouse until raised to the viscountcy in 1688, was a Scottish soldier and nobleman, a Tory and an Episcopalian. Claverhouse was responsible for policing south-west Scotland during and after the religious unrest and rebellion of the 1670s and 80s. After his death, Presbyterian historians dubbed him "Bluidy Clavers". Contemporary evidence for the fairness of this soubriquet in the Covenanting tradition is mixed. Tales of the Covenanters and Covenanter monuments hold Claverhouse directly responsible for the deaths of adherents of that movement. However, Claverhouse's own letters frequently recommended lenient treatment of Covenanters, and in 1684 he married into a prominent Covenanter family. Later, as a general in the Scottish army, Claverhouse remained loyal to King James VII of Scotland after the Revolution of 1688. He rallied those Highland clans loyal to the Jacobite cause and, although he lost his life in the battle, led them to victory at Killiecrankie. This first Jacobite rising was unsuccessful, but Claverhouse became a Jacobite hero, acquiring his second soubriquet "Bonnie Dundee".

In 1689, after the overthrow of King James VII, he continued to support the Stuart dynasty in his capacity as commander-in-chief of all Scottish forces. Dundee raised the Scottish Royal Standard on Dundee Law in support of his king, country and the Jacobite cause. However, in spite of his subsequent association with the city of Dundee, he was to face what the historian of Jacobitism, Bruce Lenman, has described as a "stony faced" reception from its townsfolk. It is claimed that Claverhouse's association with Dundee was brief and unpopular as he was seen as the representative of an arbitrary authoritarian monarchy that was eroding the self autonomy the burgh had enjoyed. Indeed, when he returned to Dundee with a small troop of horse (Dundee Law at that time lay outside the burgh walls) he was to find the walls guarded and the gates firmly shut. In fact, the city was heavily garrisoned by Williamite forces at the time which may better explain why the gates were barred to him. The fact that the large force in Dundee made no attempt to give battle or capture him may actually suggest that they were to some degree sympathetic to his cause. Later events show that cavalry based in Dundee at the time later attempted to defect and join his forces. For four months he rallied support in the hope that King James would return from Ireland.

His greatest victory was won at the Battle of Killiecrankie later that year against much greater Williamite forces led by General Hugh Mackay. Scott believes that Claverhouse's death in victory as he led the Jacobite charge down the hill at sunset was the final desperate act of a man who was aware that he had been betrayed by Melfort, the King's adviser, and was trying to overcompensate for their lack of support. The Highlanders were completely victorious, but Dundee, in the act of encouraging his men, was pierced beneath the breastplate by a musket ball of the enemy and fell dying from his horse.

Now here is where more of my family history comes in, allegedly...

Remember when I mentioned "my 3rd great grandmother, Julia Ann Graham, married Robert Mitchell Claytor in 1817, and that's why my last name is now Claytor"?

Well check this out, I've always been told the Claytor family name when we came to America in the mid-late 1660s was originally Claver, as in Claverhouse. During a census in Virginia in 1669, it was spelled to Claytor by mistake. It is said we had to leave for America because our family was Roman Catholic, that the Protestant movement and pressure on the family was the reason in addition to our loyalties.

I am still trying to verify exactly how the family members were who came to America were related to John Graham of Claverhouse. I know William Claver (as the name is recored in our 400+yr old family bible I have, that's a story in its self!) was born in 1651 in England. He died in an unknown year in Nomony, Northumberland, Virginia, USA. He is my 8th great grandfather. It is his name which was changed to Claytor during the census. We had a large family plantation in Virginia for over 100 years thru the civil war and still have family there. Claytor Lake, Claytor State Park, and many other things in Virginia are named for our family so we are very well documented in that regard.

Now I know William's father was Thomas Claver born 1611 in London, Middlesex, England. That's where the trail goes cold as he is the earliest entry in our family bible. So it appears there was perhaps some slight inbreeding haha! I'm directly decended from Euphemia Stewart "Countess of Strathearn and Caithness" and her husband Sir Patrick Graham "of Dundaff and Kilpont Earl of Strathearn". Yet my 3rd great grandmother, Julia Ann Graham, married Robert Mitchell Claytor in 1817. Of course this Claytor lineage is the Clavers related to John Graham of Claverhouse who also is decended from my 19th great grandmother, Christine Lindsay, who was Euphemia's mother.

I show that John Graham's son Sir James Graham "2nd Viscount Dundee" also died in 1689, same year he was killed. So when John Graham and his son Sir James Graham died, were the estates "forfeited" because no heir could be found, or because of John Graham's loyalties?

[Calgacus]

Ok Here is an updated image with some color added. Any corrections to what I may have colored incorrectly?

Why the 2 helms? Why the large crown in the middle?

The two helms and mottoes are unusual. It appears to be showing equal prominence to the Scrymgeour and Wedderburn sides of the family, whereas normally the male side would be given more prominence. This may relate to the relative strength/power of the two families at the time of marriage.

The large crown is I think because he was an Earl.

As for colours, technically there is no difference between silver and white. The term 'argent' covers both, so your supporters and helms should ideally be depicted in the same way as the white on the shield, either by white paint or silver metal. Same goes for gold and yellow, there is no distinction between the two.

Probably best you verify all that rather than take my word, I'm no expert in heraldry!

I take an interest in all this as I am originally from Dundee and of course the family connection to Bonnie Dundee.

[Calgacus]

So when John Graham and his son Sir James Graham died, were the estates "forfeited" because no heir could be found, or because of John Graham's loyalties?

Good question! I'd say probably due to his loyalties, but possibly both.

You are fortunate in that this family is well documented so the chances of getting answers are greatly increased. Good luck with your search, you're doing well so far.

[Pleater]

The crown is - technically - the coronet of an earl, with strawberry leaves and 'pearls' the white or silver knobs on the spikes.

Anne the Pleater :ootd:

[anguilla1980]

Ok, is this version more accurate? I changed helms and the supporters to white, then I looked up images of Earl Coronets and updated that as well.

Thanks everyone for your comments and assistance! This is really exciting, especially the fact this has now been proven to have been the actual coat of arms for John Graham 1st Viscount Dundee like our family stories always said!

The original wood carving I have of this coat of arms the drawing is made from is very old and a foot of one of the greyhounds has been broken and lost to time but other than that, it's in very good shape I think. If only our family bible were in better condition too. I'm afraid to even take it out and open it but I think I may have to so I can figure out how the Clavers that came to America were related to John Graham and how we ended up with all of this stuff.

So I've done some research on estate forfeitures and I found this site which as a full text of all Scottish estates ever forfeited for treason, http://www.archive.org/stream/select...lrich_djvu.txt and this is NOT one of them thankfully! Looks like it was "forfeited" because no heir apparent could be found because they were in America evidently! Dang how can I get it back haha?!?!?! I'm lucky enough to be a British citizen (first in 300yrs) by birth but my surname has been altered. My father used to joke about legally changing it back once we could prove all of it.

[Father Bill]

Your local library or especially a university library may be able to point you to a good book conservator who might be able to help you to preserve and repair your family Bible.

[anguilla1980]

Your local library or especially a university library may be able to point you to a good book conservator who might be able to help you to preserve and repair your family Bible.

Thank you for the suggestion, it's not falling apart or missing pages but I would cringe the day I open it and I'm the cause of a page falling out however!

We have 100s of VERY old antique books in our library which are extremely valuable, they are in permanent long-term storage as I type this. Perhaps restoration may be performed one day.

Alex

[anguilla1980]

I found this information as well...

Viscount of Dundee was a title in the Peerage of Scotland. It was created on 12 November 1688 for John Graham. He was made Lord Graham of Claverhouse at the same time, also in the Peerage of Scotland. The third Viscount forfeited both titles in 1690.
Viscounts of Dundee (1688)

• John Graham, 1st Viscount of Dundee (d. 1689)
• James Graham, 2nd Viscount of Dundee (d. 1689)
• David Graham, 3rd Viscount of Dundee (d. 1700)

I still can't find anything that specifies WHY the forfeiture occurred exactly, only that it was not due to his loyalties or it would have been on record for such like all others are. Also I have this David Graham in my family tree also. Looks like he held the estate after the passing of John and his son James until the estate forfeiture occurred which makes sense because David was John Grahams 1st Viscount's brother, I guess it just defaulted to him since Johns son was also dead.

To me, here is the larger mystery...... John Graham and his son die in 1689 right. How did I end up with all of the family stuff? One part of his family using the last name Claver (Claverhouse) came to America in the 1660s (my 8th great grandfather). Ok, well John Graham hadn't even been given that estate and coat of arms until 1688, so they didn't have any of it, yet they are mentioned in the family bible, hmmm.....

So jump back to my Graham side of the family (this inbreeding is just complicating everything lol!), my 6th great grandfather who is also named James Graham, born 1664 in Argylshire, Inverrary, Scotland, came to America right after 1700. He died in 26 Jan 1731 Caln, Chester, Pennsylvania, USA. His father Henry Graham had already come to America but sometime prior to 1684, so I know he didn't bring the stuff either. I am *presuming* this is how all of these family treasures get over here. They are related to David Graham, 3rd Viscount of Dundee, I just need to figure out how.

Then as I mentioned these 2 branches end up marring back into each other in 1817 with my 3rd great grandparents. THIS is the point it looks like when things start getting passed down and end up with me; the carving of the coat of arms for Viscount of Dundee, the family bible, the family ring, and tons of other stuff. It's like they grabbed everything and just left for America.

I would also now like to figure out what Tartan colors would be proper for the Viscount of Dundee which is what, a guess, since they didn't exist back in 1689?