Two Telling comments? The Answer Perhaps?

[Father Bill]

I think that part of the problem we're experiencing in this discussion is an erroneous and possibly unintended assumption on the part of some, that Scots think as a monolithic whole. That would be as silly as saying that all kilties think the same. This very forum, and in fact this very thread, give ample evidence that such thinking is patently false. Scots are a much more finely nuanced and varied group than that, something for which I respect them as I do any group. So, incidentally, are tourists and other visitors, with or without roots, but since we are usually fewer in number at any given time, it's easier to make broad assumptions about us than it is for the locals to make such assumptions about one-another.

While many Scots will likely think as do Jock and his friend, there are undoubtedly others with other opinions, nuances of thought, different reasoning, different experiences. I value the opinions of my good friend Jock and respect him as an individual, a model, and an observer, but I don't assume for a moment that he or any other Scot can speak for all Scots any more than I or any other Canadian can speak for all Canadians etc.

These are groupings of individuals with many similarities of experience and thought, and many, many fine, delicate, and critically significant differences and shades of meaning in their thought processes, beliefs, and perceptions. That's probably the reason that we're reporting varied experiences, BUT, Jock's perspective is helpful to me and, I would hope, to many.

The bottom line to me is that if you're patently a tourist and dress and/or behave in the ways of foolish, overenthusiastic or giddy outlanders, (no, I did not just say that all outlanders are foolish, overenthusiastic or giddy) if you do not show respect and circumspection, dignity and thoughtfulness, you'll likely be received as such: usually politely, usually patiently, but often with rolled eyes as you walk away. If you do so while sporting something that is symbolic, iconic, and near and dear to the hearts of the "locals," you may actually engender some low-level, silent, seething, and disgusted hostility, albeit mostly silent.

More than that, such behaviour paints a broad stroke against other more sensitive tourists and visitors and does nobody any favour. The "I'll do as I damned well please" attitude of some is hurtful to many others and paints the individual who takes that stand as a boor, an uncaring clod, and an uneducated fool. Yes, you are indeed free to behave that way. But as one who tries hard not to, you make my life more difficult as you create hard feelings and by doing so, it seems to me that you don't care about me or anyone else in the world other than yourself when you do so. As such, you get little respect from me.

Are there "national characteristics?" Undoubtedly so. In fact, it sometimes seems to me that the aforementioned "I'll do as I damned well please" way of thinking is a characteristic of some groups, possibly some nationalities, but it's foolish to suggest that any stereotype is universally true. Different tourists. Different Scots. Different peoples. Different ways.

Here endeth the sermon.

Father Bill+

[Jock Scot]

Father Bill.


You should pour yourself a large dram tonight ! Nicely said.

[Father Bill]

Thanks Jock! I'm thinking Aberlour. I have an Abunadh on my shelf!

[Nathan]

I think that part of the problem we're experiencing in this discussion is an erroneous and possibly unintended assumption on the part of some, that Scots think as a monolithic whole. That would be as silly as saying that all kilties think the same. This very forum, and in fact this very thread, give ample evidence that such thinking is patently false. Scots are a much more finely nuanced and varied group than that, something for which I respect them as I do any group. So, incidentally, are tourists and other visitors, with or without roots, but since we are usually fewer in number at any given time, it's easier to make broad assumptions about us than it is for the locals to make such assumptions about one-another.

While many Scots will likely think as do Jock and his friend, there are undoubtedly others with other opinions, nuances of thought, different reasoning, different experiences. I value the opinions of my good friend Jock and respect him as an individual, a model, and an observer, but I don't assume for a moment that he or any other Scot can speak for all Scots any more than I or any other Canadian can speak for all Canadians etc.

These are groupings of individuals with many similarities of experience and thought, and many, many fine, delicate, and critically significant differences and shades of meaning in their thought processes, beliefs, and perceptions. That's probably the reason that we're reporting varied experiences, BUT, Jock's perspective is helpful to me and, I would hope, to many.

The bottom line to me is that if you're patently a tourist and dress and/or behave in the ways of foolish, overenthusiastic or giddy outlanders, (no, I did not just say that all outlanders are foolish, overenthusiastic or giddy) if you do not show respect and circumspection, dignity and thoughtfulness, you'll likely be received as such: usually politely, usually patiently, but often with rolled eyes as you walk away. If you do so while sporting something that is symbolic, iconic, and near and dear to the hearts of the "locals," you may actually engender some low-level, silent, seething, and disgusted hostility, albeit mostly silent.

More than that, such behaviour paints a broad stroke against other more sensitive tourists and visitors and does nobody any favour. The "I'll do as I damned well please" attitude of some is hurtful to many others and paints the individual who takes that stand as a boor, an uncaring clod, and an uneducated fool. Yes, you are indeed free to behave that way. But as one who tries hard not to, you make my life more difficult as you create hard feelings and by doing so, it seems to me that you don't care about me or anyone else in the world other than yourself when you do so. As such, you get little respect from me.

Are there "national characteristics?" Undoubtedly so. In fact, it sometimes seems to me that the aforementioned "I'll do as I damned well please" way of thinking is a characteristic of some groups, possibly some nationalities, but it's foolish to suggest that any stereotype is universally true. Different tourists. Different Scots. Different peoples. Different ways.

Here endeth the sermon.

Father Bill+

What a wise and nuanced post, Father Bill. There is little argument when someone speaks truth so eloquently. Thank you.

[creagdhubh]

Well said, Father Bill!

[KentuckyCeltophile]

I think that part of the problem we're experiencing in this discussion is an erroneous and possibly unintended assumption on the part of some, that Scots think as a monolithic whole. That would be as silly as saying that all kilties think the same. This very forum, and in fact this very thread, give ample evidence that such thinking is patently false. Scots are a much more finely nuanced and varied group than that, something for which I respect them as I do any group. So, incidentally, are tourists and other visitors, with or without roots, but since we are usually fewer in number at any given time, it's easier to make broad assumptions about us than it is for the locals to make such assumptions about one-another.

While many Scots will likely think as do Jock and his friend, there are undoubtedly others with other opinions, nuances of thought, different reasoning, different experiences. I value the opinions of my good friend Jock and respect him as an individual, a model, and an observer, but I don't assume for a moment that he or any other Scot can speak for all Scots any more than I or any other Canadian can speak for all Canadians etc.

These are groupings of individuals with many similarities of experience and thought, and many, many fine, delicate, and critically significant differences and shades of meaning in their thought processes, beliefs, and perceptions. That's probably the reason that we're reporting varied experiences, BUT, Jock's perspective is helpful to me and, I would hope, to many.

The bottom line to me is that if you're patently a tourist and dress and/or behave in the ways of foolish, overenthusiastic or giddy outlanders, (no, I did not just say that all outlanders are foolish, overenthusiastic or giddy) if you do not show respect and circumspection, dignity and thoughtfulness, you'll likely be received as such: usually politely, usually patiently, but often with rolled eyes as you walk away. If you do so while sporting something that is symbolic, iconic, and near and dear to the hearts of the "locals," you may actually engender some low-level, silent, seething, and disgusted hostility, albeit mostly silent.

More than that, such behaviour paints a broad stroke against other more sensitive tourists and visitors and does nobody any favour. The "I'll do as I damned well please" attitude of some is hurtful to many others and paints the individual who takes that stand as a boor, an uncaring clod, and an uneducated fool. Yes, you are indeed free to behave that way. But as one who tries hard not to, you make my life more difficult as you create hard feelings and by doing so, it seems to me that you don't care about me or anyone else in the world other than yourself when you do so. As such, you get little respect from me.

Are there "national characteristics?" Undoubtedly so. In fact, it sometimes seems to me that the aforementioned "I'll do as I damned well please" way of thinking is a characteristic of some groups, possibly some nationalities, but it's foolish to suggest that any stereotype is universally true. Different tourists. Different Scots. Different peoples. Different ways.

Here endeth the sermon.

Father Bill+

Preach on Father!

[TheOfficialBren]

I'd happily sit through your sermons, Father Bill!

[tpa]

While many Scots will likely think as do Jock and his friend, there are undoubtedly others with other opinions, nuances of thought, different reasoning, different experiences.
Father Bill+

Until I got involved in this forum and I have forgotten why or how I found it, in approaching 60 years of on and off kilt wearing, I had never had a discussion with anyone on what is right and what is wrong in terms of kilt wearing. My first kilt was bought for me as part of my school uniform and whilst at school worn with other uniform items depending on occasion or what I felt I could get away with; (as today, this latter element also applied to most school kids and most uniform items). Outside of school, I could and did please myself. I would never try to dictate to anyone what they should or should not wear unless asked for guidance or an opinion, though that does not stop me saying what I like or don't like about clothing. Think trousers half way down your (being polite) backside.

What has changed is the availability of more affordable kilts more suited to everyday wear, which opens up a whole host different options and also the growth of hire shops where the financial benefits of uniformity take preference to what some would deem to be correct and proper.

Personally I welcome the change, variety is the spice of life, I am all for more people wearing kilts on a regular or even daily basis. I think it celebrates rather than devalues the heritage; but as with any other clothing I endeavour to present an acceptable and appropriate front although comfort takes precedence over style for all but very formal occasions.

Wearing a kilt now on an almost daily basis, I frequently forget that I am kilted (possibly an age problem) when interacting with other people and so may miss any reactions, but few appear to pay much attention, and this was as true on my recent visit to Scotland as it is at home in central England. I suppose I am probably classified, if classification is really necessary, in the eccentric category as none of the other previously suggested categories fit.

[neloon]

Jock (post # 177) and Calgacus (post # 178) have remarked on Scotland "reviewing its place in the modern world". To expand on this, we need to go back a couple of hundred years (which is not that far - my great grandfather was born in 1812). At that time, half the world map was coloured pink and Scots were playing a completely disproportionate part in the Empire. They were explorers, administrators, diplomats, teachers, missionaries, tea planters, jute traders, (kilted) soldiers, engineers (my grandfather spent most of his days as a marine engineer in Singapore and my father helped to design Lagos harbour) and so on. Those who stayed in Scotland dug coal for the Empire, built ships on the Clyde for the Empire, built locomotives for the Empire. Scotland had status in the world. Victoria and her family were kilt devotees so Highland Dress, clans, chiefs, heather and shortbread were the order of the day in a proud Scotland.

But, in the 20 years after the WW2, the Empire evaporated and with it, Scotland's self-confidence. So modern Scotland struggles to regain a small element of that status, to be able to look at itself with self respect again. The result is a rather schizophrenic psyche, reflected in attitudes to the question that we may not currently discuss on this forum but also to a perceived battle between head and heart. The "head" people (such as Harry?) say we must be modern - be hyper-connected with the world on its terms, concentrate on being innovative, get rid of all that old tartan nonsense (after all, the young "Royals" won't go near the kilt). That's the way forward for a vibrant new Scotland that can today welcome 71 countries from around the world to the Commonwealth Games, they say.

But the heart is still beating deep down. So if we puzzle some of you, we puzzle ourselves as well.
Alan

[Jock Scot]

I agree with almost all you say. However," Harry" is more of the anti romantic school and is very aware of his family's part in Scotland's path through time, but I don't see him as an avid modernist, although Scotland retaking possession of the kilt is very much in his mind. That is why I was so taken(and shaken) by his comment.