Looking for a company to make Family Tartan Fabric

[Grunthos]

Oh, and by the way, on the 'plaid vs tartan' thing, .... as far as I'm aware, the terms are pretty interchangeable, there's no ultimate definition of tartan beyond its being a criss-cross pattern, and being here in the US right now I'm certainly hearing our product described as plaid far more than as tartan.

But in fact on our web site we are talking about both, and using them consistently differently

In the US, anything with both horizontal and vertical stripes are called plaid. They don't have to be symmetrical or consistent in any direction. Certainly that's been my observation over the last 4 decades or so.

Whereas tartans are a specific subset of plaids, that are symmetrical (at least on the diagonal, and usually on the horizontal/vertical).

I'm not sure if that fits the Scotweb usage, but I think it's what most Americans would understand (at least among those that even know of tartans )

Americans only know the word plaid as a fabric pattern, and not as a shoulder sash. "Everybody knows" here that cowboys wear plaid shirts, but they aren't necessarily tartan patterns at all.

Perhaps to a British ear it may sound strange to refer to tartans as plaids, but in the US it makes perfect sense that tartans are a specific type of plaid. I wonder if there is either a different word in Britain for non-symmetrical striped patterns, or perhaps there just aren't many non-tartan striped patterns?

[figheadair]

Whilst most tartans are symmetic there are a number of old patterns that are asymmetric, Buchanan and Glenorchy being the two most common. In Britain, and probably elsewhere, they are known as asymmetric tartans.

Notwithstanding Nick's comment, the term 'plaid' is not usually used here in the UK, or in Europe more widely, to mean tartan.

Whereas tartans are a specific subset of plaids, that are symmetrical (at least on the diagonal, and usually on the horizontal/vertical).

Perhaps to a British ear it may sound strange to refer to tartans as plaids, but in the US it makes perfect sense that tartans are a specific type of plaid. I wonder if there is either a different word in Britain for non-symmetrical striped patterns, or perhaps there just aren't many non-tartan striped patterns?

[OC Richard]

Whilst most tartans are symmetic there are a number of old patterns that are asymmetric, Buchanan...

About Buchanan, is your knowledge consistent with the account given in Setts, that Logan 1831 and Smibert 1850 give a symmetric count, and that the asymmetric version first appears in the McIan 1845 illustration, which also shows an irregular Robertson?

Were Wilson (or anyone else) weaving a symmetric Buchanan in the early 19th century?

[figheadair]

My research leads me to conclude that Smibert and Stewart got it wrong because they followed Logan's count which Wilsons themselves described as very defective. There is no evidence of a symmetrical setting before Smibert's 1850 misinterpretation of Logan's scale. I've discuss the orgins and errors in this paper.

About Buchanan, is your knowledge consistent with the account given in Setts, that Logan 1831 and Smibert 1850 give a symmetric count, and that the asymmetric version first appears in the McIan 1845 illustration, which also shows an irregular Robertson?

Were Wilson (or anyone else) weaving a symmetric Buchanan in the early 19th century?

[Grunthos]

Whilst most tartans are symmetic there are a number of old patterns that are asymmetric, Buchanan and Glenorchy being the two most common. In Britain, and probably elsewhere, they are known as asymmetric tartans.

Yes, they are asymmetric on the horizontal and vertical, in that the sequence repeats but does not reverse. That's what most people mean when using the term "asymmetrical" for these.

But the horizontal sequence is the same as the vertical sequence, making them symmetrical on the diagonal. Nobody even questions whether the horizontal and vertical sequences are the same or not; they always are in tartans.

In the U.S., there are lots of variations in fabric patterns where the horizontal sequence is not the same as the vertical sequence at all (and may not even be the same colors let alone order). These get referred to in the US as "plaid", but not "tartan".

Notwithstanding Nick's comment, the term 'plaid' is not usually used here in the UK, or in Europe more widely, to mean tartan.

Interesting. For my curiosity, what would "plaid" be used for, and what term would be used for a fabric pattern with different sequences in the horizontal versus vertical?

I find it interesting how words change and mutate over time and distance.

[figheadair]

Yes, they are asymmetric on the horizontal and vertical, in that the sequence repeats but does not reverse. That's what most people mean when using the term "asymmetrical" for these.

But the horizontal sequence is the same as the vertical sequence, making them symmetrical on the diagonal. Nobody even questions whether the horizontal and vertical sequences are the same or not; they always are in tartans.

Actually that's not quite the case. It's unusual but there are examples of 18th and early 19th century tartans that have a different warp and weft.

Interesting. For my curiosity, what would "plaid" be used for, and what term would be used for a fabric pattern with different sequences in the horizontal versus vertical?

I find it interesting how words change and mutate over time and distance.

Plaid is usually used to refer to the traditional item of clothing i.e. belted plaid, shoulder plaid, fly plaid, piper's plaid.

A multi-striped cloth having a different arrangement in the warp and weft is referred to in a number of different ways. The exact term would depend on a number of things such as the amount of difference and who one asked. Some might simply call it 'checked', others might use the term Bumbee Tartan meaning not a proper tartan. Some people might not even notice the difference and would simply call a piece tartan.

[Alan H]

I very much wished to get the Scottish Wildcat Tartan woven by either Knockando or Dalgliesh due to my having visited both of the mills on this past summer trip to Scotland. Knockando turned down the job. I tried messaging Nick through XMTS to ask him about it and I never got an answer. To this day, I STILL don't have an answer. After a couple of weeks wait for Nick to get back to me, I inquired through ScotWeb as to whether Dalgliesh would be interested in the job. It took a lot of prodding to get an answer out of Scotweb, but finally I did get an e-mail from "Hamish" at Scotweb that they would not be able to tell me, within the span of two weeks, whether Dalgliesh was even "interested" in the job. -- Not whether they could produce the stuff, but whether they could tell me if they were "interested". This boggles my mind, I mean, it's the matter of a phone call or a letter, yes?

It seemed clear to me that they simply didn't want Dalgliesh to get the work.

So we set upon a long process of finding mills to work with. In fact, we may wind up with Dalgliesh in the end, but only because Barb. T. has a direct connection with someone at the Dalgliesh mill. If we had to go through Nick or Scotweb, the work would obviously never get done.

When I was there this past summer, while I thoroughly enjoyed seeing the place, it was clear that the double-wide looms had not operated in quite some time. There are 6-8 of them in the building and only two were threaded. The only loom that showed signs of current work was the single-width loom. The people I met were lovely, I would be very happy if they got work and were able to continue in the business, but at this point I'm rather less than impressed. I read lots of fancy writing about "saving" the mill and so on, which has gone of for about two years, now, and I see a nifty new website. All well and good, but until new looms go in and orders get processed and cloth gets produced and kilts get made, it's all talk. BTW, the looms in the current building, as lovely as they are, are relicts of another age. They're historical objects, now....not production looms for a business serious about producing volumes of fabric..

That's rather "hard" but it's the truth as I see it. Not that I know whole, whole lot, but there's my two cents. Personally, I'd love to see the company "make it".

[KiltFitz]

Hi Priest,

Very interested in this thread. Although I go under the name of Fitzgerald, My family name (including my father's) is McGahon. It's a long story involving his broadcasting name for radio, the fact that he got married as Fitzgerald and a drunken trip to the registrar's office when he forgot to add McGahon at the end, all of which would be too humiliating to tell you all.

Basically - I'm a member of the clan since I understand McGahan, McGahen, McGahon all have the same Scots-Irish background. You will find quite a number of McGahons in the Dundalk and surrounding Louth and Co Down areas where my own family are.

Really interested in your tartan, let me know when you get anywhere with orders and I would be interested in getting some too.

[Priest]

This is the tartan being registered for our name. I will also upload the clan crest too once i can get it downloaded to my phone. I think Morton Mills is going to be the ones we use to produce the fabric. I'll keep you updated

Priest,


Very interested in this thread. Although I go under the name of Fitzgerald, My family name (including my father's) is McGahon. It's a long story involving his broadcasting name for radio, the fact that he got married as Fitzgerald and a drunken trip to the registrar's office when he forgot to add McGahon at the end, all of which would be too humiliating to tell you all.

Basically - I'm a member of the clan since I understand McGahan, McGahen, McGahon all have the same Scots-Irish background. You will find quite a number of McGahons in the Dundalk and surrounding Louth and Co Down areas where my own family are.

Really interested in your tartan, let me know when you get anywhere with orders and I would be interested in getting some too.

[Nick Fiddes]

I very much wished to get the Scottish Wildcat Tartan woven by either Knockando or Dalgliesh due to my having visited both of the mills on this past summer trip to Scotland. Knockando turned down the job. I tried messaging Nick through XMTS to ask him about it and I never got an answer. To this day, I STILL don't have an answer. After a couple of weeks wait for Nick to get back to me, I inquired through ScotWeb as to whether Dalgliesh would be interested in the job. It took a lot of prodding to get an answer out of Scotweb, but finally I did get an e-mail from "Hamish" at Scotweb that they would not be able to tell me, within the span of two weeks, whether Dalgliesh was even "interested" in the job. -- Not whether they could produce the stuff, but whether they could tell me if they were "interested". This boggles my mind, I mean, it's the matter of a phone call or a letter, yes?

It seemed clear to me that they simply didn't want Dalgliesh to get the work.

Hi Alan,

Firstly, I have to say I was baffled when you said you'd written to me on this board and not had a reply from me. I'm try to be punctilious about responding promptly to all messages. But I'm hugely embarrassed to check and see that there is indeed a message from you there, which I can only apologise profusely for if you've not had a response. At this remove I can only guess that I must have read it and then got distracted or had a computer crash or something, and failed to realise I'd not sent a reply. Unfortunately the display system on XMTS messages doesn't make non-replies easy to notice, which is no excuse. Perhaps you can understand however that with two small children and two businesses this sometimes leaves me, as a human being, operating at less than 100% efficiency.

However, whilst I understand your frustration with not getting what you wished, I also have to say I don't entirely recognise your account of the rest of your efforts to ask us to weave your fabric. May I share our own records of the correspondence, to see if they accord with yours?

On 28 August you enquired about having an unspecified new design woven.

The next working day (29th) we replied asking for details of the tartan.

You replied the same day, basically pointing us towards the XMTS forums for details.

The next day (a Saturday) we asked whether it was registered with the SRT?

The next day you replied, suggesting (a) that the design wasn't yet finalised; and (b) that you'd need 30 yards of 13 ounce double width fabric in "a week, maybe ten days". And I'd note that the question phrased as whether Dalgliesh would be "interested" in the work was introduced by yourself at this point, as it's certainly not a word we'd ever use to say that we couldn't undertake something.

The next working day we replied saying "I'm very sorry but we would not be able to meet that deadline. I'm sorry for any disappointment caused." The reason for this is that no mill to our knowledge can produce double width fabric on that sort of timescale; and also that 13oz is not one of our standard ranges so would take even longer.

You then replied, thanking us for the correspondence, and we believed it was closed to your satisfaction (even though we were unable to help).

I'd also note that I've also searched the DC Dalgliesh email archives and can find no record of any messages from you directly to DC Dalgliesh, so I believe this represents the sum total of our correspondence. I'm really not clear how this represents "a lot of prodding" when it seems to me we've responded appropriately and promptly at ever juncture.

So, in short, I'm very sorry that you've been disappointed by your experience with us. And as always we try to learn lessons from such events to see where we can improve. I do detect in some of your correspondence an element of frustration of "not wanting this to carry on for days and days, waiting on back-and-forth emails". But regrettably, due to the time zone differences, our offices are mostly closed when the US is awake, which makes email the best medium in many cases, and we do make a point of replying the next working day at the latest. I'd also note that it is better than unrecorded phone calls for establishing the full exchange of information, to avoid misunderstandings.

I hope this helps. If you have any other problems, please feel free to contact me directly since, as always, I make myself available to sort out any issues that may arise. I promise you my one-off failure previously to reply is not typical!

Kind regards

Nick