Two Telling comments? The Answer Perhaps?

[Jock Scot]

JockScot

Thank you for your wise words. I appreciate there are many civil people here with a genuine desire to share and learn. My angst is raised by only a few. I have been a teacher and a professor for many years and blame no one for ignorance. Lord knows we are all ignorant of much. Unfortunately I have few filters when it comes to dealing with foolishness. I didn't even get half-way through this thread before stumbling over some quite offensive posts that no one apparently found any fault with, yet questioning those posts is now offensive? I suppose if you are going to presume to restore another country's heritage, Scotland is as good a place as any to start. The only question is, where will such like-minded X-markers go next to inform the allegedly misinformed: East to Norway? West to Ireland? or perhaps south to France!

I think it is best for me to bow out of discussions. There is much here I would like access to and I don't wish to get banned because I am easily aggravated by ignorant rabble.

I hear what you say, Cyd and many(not all) of the sentiments you voice I am totally at ease with. Nevertheless, there are ways of saying things that we over here have no problem with, but those over there do! Indeed there are some outrageous things said on occasion by those outwith these shores, but on the whole I try to give them the benefit of the doubt, but It does stretch my tolerance more than somewhat! I still have to really think about how I phrase things and constantly edit my posts to try to avoid upset. It usually takes me three times as many words in a post and I still never feel that I say what I really want to say!!!!!But that is the nature of international websites, I suppose. Stick around, your insight is very handy!

[Cyd]

I hear what you say, Cyd and many(not all) of the sentiments you voice I am totally at ease with. Nevertheless, there are ways of saying things that we over here have no problem with, but those over there do! Indeed there are some outrageous things said on occasion by those outwith these shores, but on the whole I try to give them the benefit of the doubt, but It does stretch my tolerance more than somewhat! I still have to really think about how I phrase things and constantly edit my posts to try to avoid upset. It usually takes me three times as many words in a post and I still never feel that I say what I really want to say!!!!!But that is the nature of international websites, I suppose. Stick around, your insight is very handy!

Sir, I hear you. I find myself editing posts to this site more than anything else, which is saying something. I have authoured many scientific papers, legal briefs and patent applications, and few of them require as much revisiting as posts here. The misunderstandings frequently seem incomprehensible and I wonder at times if we are communicating in the same language.

I have to cut back somewhat or I will go mental and surely offend another delicate colonial flower. In fact I possibly just did, but as a Scot I fully expect soon to have a Canadian tell me that isn't how my ancestors would have done it.

Let's say for complaining and correction, this forum is a target rich environment and I have to be more discreet in the future.


(For those who might be offended, this post is an example of British humour and not to be taken too seriously. I can't believe I have to explain a joke...... e.g., see Billy Connolly, Frank Carson or Russell Brand.)

[Jock Scot]

Oh I have in-advertantly trodden on many an international "mine"in my time here!

Things that we say as a matter of course over here causes huge upset over there. "Playing at being a Scot" for one and suggesting that a Canadian/American/wherever who has distant Scottish roots that they are not Scots, for another, can cause apoplexy to some, whilst those thoughts are perfectly valid and natural to many in Scotland! And then, having someone from "wherever" telling the Scots that the kilt is now international property and Scotland have no longer a claim on the kilt! That tests one's diplomacy skills I can tell you!

Yes it is a learning curve for us all, but at times it does seem a one way street to this Scot! The only way to combat these things is to gently point out, again and again and again and then, again, that there are those in Scotland who do not see things as others do in other parts of the world. It can come as a shock to some, even the more enlightened!

On the whole though, I think it is better to gently enlighten members here of another perspective rather than let them assume that they have the monopoly of point of view.

[tpa]

Yes it is a learning curve for us all, but at times it does seem a one way street to this Scot!

We are a little outnumbered here Jock with the population of the USA 60x that of Scotland, and true highlanders such as you even more so; so it is not surprising the odds are not exactly favourable. You'll just have to compensate as you do with quality and quantity in educational terms.

Having said that I would defend the right of anyone to dress as they please, with the the request that the end result is pleasing to the eye, at least to my eye. Unfortunately everyone's eyes are different.

[Jock Scot]

We are a little outnumbered here Jock with the population of the USA 60x that of Scotland, and true highlanders such as you even more so; so it is not surprising the odds are not exactly favourable. You'll just have to compensate as you do with quality and quantity in educational terms.

Having said that I would defend the right of anyone to dress as they please, with the the request that the end result is pleasing to the eye, at least to my eye. Unfortunately everyone's eyes are different.

Oh yes indeed, exactly so!

[Cyd]

Isn't it ironic though that one so easily offended by subscription to his actual nationality can so easily trodden all over the national identity of another with such apparent ease and lack of concern? I suppose that is the one way street to which you refer.

Personally, I do not find a problem with the international adoption of the kilt or tartan identity to surnames. I think it is a wonderful tradition, however manufactured, and although Scottish in origin should be spread like any good idea. It is healthy for the tradition and keeps it alive.

I do however believe that if you are going to adopt a tradition, you can't do it piecemeal. For example, the clan affiliation rules should be observed and one should not wear a tartan that they do not have bona fide affiliation with. This means recognizing paternal affiliation and not some distant link through your mother or grandmother. If you can't find a tartan that has recognized meaning for you, design one. It isn't difficult and I have no idea why a "Smith" for example, would want to wear a "Robertson" tartan other than expediency and perhaps cost. Traditions can not be adopted piecemeal and still be considered a tradition. A simple concept that is surprisingly difficult for some to grasp.

I know many disagree with this example and think it is a free for all, which legally it largely is for tartans (careful about how you use clan badges less you run foul of the Lyon Court) but if you do that you are not following tradition. In fact, you are mocking it.

[Arnot]

Oh I have in-advertantly trodden on many an international "mine"in my time here!

Things that we say as a matter of course over here causes huge upset over there. "Playing at being a Scot" for one and suggesting that a Canadian/American/wherever who has distant Scottish roots that they are not Scots, for another, can cause apoplexy to some, whilst those thoughts are perfectly valid and natural to many in Scotland! And then, having someone from "wherever" telling the Scots that the kilt is now international property and Scotland have no longer a claim on the kilt! That tests one's diplomacy skills I can tell you!

Yes it is a learning curve for us all, but at times it does seem a one way street to this Scot! The only way to combat these things is to gently point out, again and again and again and then, again, that there are those in Scotland who do not see things as others do in other parts of the world. It can come as a shock to some, even the more enlightened!

On the whole though, I think it is better to gently enlighten members here of another perspective rather than let them assume that they have the monopoly of point of view.

The only thing that ruffles my feathers (only a little) is the "Playing at being a Scot" bit. I am an American of Scottish and Ojibway ancestry. When I am wearing my kilt I am still me, American of Scottish and Ojibway ancestry. I am not playing at anything. I am quite serious about getting it right as I lean toward the more traditional side of things.

[Jock Scot]

The only thing that ruffles my feathers (only a little) is the "Playing at being a Scot" bit. I am an American of Scottish and Ojibway ancestry. When I am wearing my kilt I am still me, American of Scottish and Ojibway ancestry. I am not playing at anything. I am quite serious about getting it right as I lean toward the more traditional side of things.

I quite understand that Troy, but then I have the advantage of being a member on this website, most Scots have never heard of Xmarksthescot so they will have no idea of the upset that their natural thoughts could cause. Therein lies the problem.

[McMurdo]

Cyd
You have a gift for taking everything out of context. I suggest you re read everything I posted and then you may see where my thought process was at the time. I stand behind everything I posted earlier in this thread given the context.

[Taskr]

I return to this thread now and then to catch up on the conversation since it is anything but boring! First, as alluded a few times in the thread, everyone please remember that text has no tone, so do read carefully. It is intersesting, engaging conversation.

As for the young fellow's perception he will look touristy, that is perhaps not unusual. Many cultures have 'dress' that is distinctive in a historical context that get donned by the masses if only for short durations - you can't swing a dead cat in Calgary without hitting a 'cowboy' during Stampede week. Though I haven't yet asked a real ranch hand what they think of it and if they go out dressed other than, we can imagine the office worker with the dinner-plate belt buckle and 18 gallon Stetson might get at least a raised eyebrow.

Where does that leave us who enjoy wearing a kilt? We who enjoy wearing a kilt no matter where we are, methinks. Might the young fellow someday wear it? Maybe. Must he? Of course not. But for the sake of such folk as Jock and others born and/or living in Scotland, if not that particular fellow then hopefully others. It is a visible expression of a rich and unique culture and a rather sharp expression of fashion, IMHO. If no one in Scotland ever wears it again (highly improbable) then so be it. Not mine to judge. As did Nathan, I was also raised in the portion of Cape Breton that has clung to and revitalized Celtic music, dance, and language. It has its trendy, tourist aspects to it now, but we should be happy for those who continued to pass it on with as much care as they could for 'tradition' as it is an interesting heritage interwoven with contemporary realities. Kilts were not unusual when I was growing up. I only started wearing one recently (excepting the hand-me-down outfit sew by my mother for a 5-6 yr old). As for touristy in Scotland, I find this from Steve on page 15 of this thread interesting (bold original):

"Here are just a few of the pics I found. Now, keep in mind all of the companies are located in Scotland and are some of the most respected names"

How, then, is any young Scot to balance the perception of touristy? These are, after all, respected national shops. If the most respected names are perpetuating 'wrong', yet nothing is being done to correct them then one can only assume it is correct. And thus, not touristy ..so if I wore....or maybe. Yeah, it gets confusing.

To Jock; I think we can all say with certainty that your example to the young man is probably the best education he can get regarding the respectful wearing of the kilt for what it is. Perhaps his girl will see her handsome fellow in a kilt one day. (not to say others would not, only that Jock moves in the fellow's circles)