Quality Sporrans for less money

[Steve Ashton]

As there was recently a question put to the staff concerning this thread - and as the forum's advertising policies fall under my purview - I thought it best that I respond publicly to the concerns that have been raised.

The concern raised was not about a rule being broken and the staff have determined that no rule was broken.

The question was more about the fine line between keeping people informed, passing on by word-of-mouth a new discovery, promotion of a company, and indirect advertising.

For as long as this forum has been around, one of the hallmarks has been honest and forthright reviews of products. Another hallmark has been an opportunity for members to show off their outfits and any new items they may have purchased.

One of the problems we have faced since we took on our first paying advertiser back in 2004 was how to separate the 'drive-by' advertising and promotion that plagues some sites, from those reputable companies that choose to support this forum.

We developed our advertising policy with these in mind.

We have publicly published our Policy on Advertising Promotion and Product Reviews in our Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ's) section -

Please notice the parts I have highlighted in red below -

Our policy on advertising, promotion and product reviews

Advertising & Promotion
Our members want access to a wide array of kilts and kilt related products and services. To provide this we have accepted paid advertising from select companies who wish to present their products to our membership.

Advertising and/or Promotion are defined as:
"A form of communication used to encourage, persuade, drive or induce an audience to take or continue some action concerning a commercial offering. It can be used to change or reinforce consumer behavior or offer assurances to consumers. Advertising often involves repetition of an image or product name in an effort to associate certain qualities with the image or name.
Advertising does not always involve the direct sale of a good or service. An example would be the case of a public service announcement. If the result is an increase in awareness of a good or service it is advertising and /or promotion."
Any member of the forum who produces a kilt or kilt related product and who wishes to advertise on the forum will be directed to our advertising plan for details of our ad space and rates.

No other advertising or promotion will be allowed except those listed in the advertising plan.

Posting in the DIY, For Sale, and Photo Galleries
The DIY Section is intended as a place to share ideas and accomplishments of items made by our members for their personal use. It is not intended to be a "show room" for new products being introduced by any commercial enterprise.

The “For Sale” section of the forum is intended for private sales of items owned by our members for their personal use. No product or service will be listed, or linked to, in the “For Sale” section by any Commercial Enterprise.

The posting of photos on the forum or in the "Photo Galleries" is intended for our members to show off their own, personally owned, kilts, accessories, and outfits. Posting photos of products for sale by any commercial enterprise other than paid advertisers is not allowed.

Product Reviews & Endorsements
One of the functions of X Marks is to allow open and honest reviews of kilts, kilt related products and services.

Product Reviews are the best way for new members to gain information about suppliers. We encourage our members to post Product Reviews. All reviews must be about a product purchased for the members own use. Product reviews must contain only verifiable factual information.

Negative product reviews are also encouraged as an important warning to other potential buyers, but the reviewer must be very careful not to denigrate or libel the manufacturer or supplier. Negative reviews must contain only verifiable factual information.

If member wishes to post a review, of a product purchased from one of our advertisers, it would be best if the review is posted in that advertisers section of the forum.

Product Endorsements, while not prohibited, are not encouraged. We understand that everyone has their favorite supplier, but endorsements often cross the line and become unauthorized advertisements. Any endorsement of a product must have the approval of the manufacturer or seller. Endorsements must contain only verifiable factual information. Defining when a Product Endorsement crosses the line and becomes Advertising will rest solely with the Forum Owner. For example: an endorsement made as a first post would be very suspicious.



I would ask our members to keep these points in mind as they attempt to help and inform others.

I seriously doubt that a thread that simply presented the features that make a quality product, and how to identify those features, (without including examples of commercial offerings), would not have raised the question that was presented to the staff.

If we hold a member to a standard within the DIY, For Sale, or Photo Galleries sections of the forum should we not apply the same standard across the entire forum?

Would it be considered fair to highlight or mention commercial offerings from companies that have chosen not to support this forum?

[Profane James]

Copy that, Roger wilco.

[OC Richard]

If the result is an increase in awareness of a good or service it is advertising and /or promotion.

Thanks for bringing my attention to those rules, which I hadn't read (or maybe just didn't remember).

I'm trying to fully understand their meaning. The line above appears to ban any discussion of any goods or services (except of course those offered by paid advertisers) because to mention something is to increase awareness of it.

"All reviews must be about a product purchased for the members own use."

This line bans the purpose of my thread, to bring attention to offerings I have not purchased.

"Any endorsement of a product must have the approval of the manufacturer or seller."

This line, if taken literally, bans the endorsement of anything made by a firm not currently in business, like my recommendation of vintage Nicoll Brothers sporrans.

"One of the functions of X Marks is to allow open and honest reviews of kilts, kilt related products and services."

But restricted to reviews of offerings of the paid advertisers, with prior approval, if the rules above are taken literally.

One thing about the above rules is that they make a distinction between "product reviews" and "product endorsements". If a review is positive it is also an endorsement (if these words have their usual meanings).

Another language issue is the precise meaning of "commercial offering". If a private individual is selling something to you in your home is it a commercial offering? What if the same transaction happens between the same two private individuals here on XMarks? What if the same transaction happens between the same two individuals on Ebay? Is it now a commercial offering?

[Antipodean Celt]

A short note of support OC Richard. I found your advice extremely helpful and valuable. I read your posts with interest, and always learn something. This thread gave me the confidence to know what I am looking for in the great and wild jungle that is Ebay, and I will certainly keep my eyes open for that interesting sporran.

I completely respect Steve's view and rules, and obviously the forum benefits from those rules, lest we descend into chaos (as many forums do).

Might I suggest that you continue to highlight interesting sporrans that you find out there in the big wide world marketplace, but refrain from posting until after the sale has concluded, or perhaps de-identify the seller or the marketplace (ie just show the photos). That might be within the rules whilst also allowing you to guide your very ignorant students who greatly benefit from your knowledge and experience.

Just a thought.

Kind regards,

John

[48HofC]

One of the issues with using examples of sporrans listed on eBay is the seller might not be to keen on having their sales copied to another website. If they wanted there wares on xmarks, they would have put them in the classified section. I know if something I had for sale appeared on here(and I do sell Scottish military kit on eBay) with comments gleaned from web surfing knowledge, I wouldn’t be exactly happy about it.

[Taskr]

With due respect to all,

An interesting thread and addition of clarity from Steve regarding what can be read as a very fine line being straddled.

Gaining information on how to save a bit of coin on items we seek is not a bad thing at all. Some of us will always buy new because that's the way we are - and there is something about the written or unwritten expectation of return to vendor should the buyer be not as pleased as expected. Not that we won't wait for a reduced price or clearance item.

Richard's research on ebay is always read because I don't know ebay at all. I've not purchased and don't know if I ever will. Yet, I do see a perspective of promoting a particular site but ONLY because of the links provided. I think I would read it differently if the statements were more along the lines of .. I searched for {description} and found a few good leads of reasonable quality .. without a providing a link. For me, that would be even more educational because I might learn how to search that quagmire better - and also assist me in how to search for items on the Net in general.

The community here is great and we all learn so much about this wonderful addiction called the kilt. Sometimes staying inside the lines gets a little fuzzy. Still, its all good.

[kingandrew]

Steve--You raise a number of good points. Most importantly, it is clear you have really thought about these issues from a variety of angles and are looking for the fairest approach that most benefits the members of this forum. So thank you for that.

48HofC--I'm not seeking to argue against your point or disagree with your statement, but I wonder why a seller would object to having his or her product listing mentioned in a positive way on this site. I imagine it might attract a few interested potential buyers who had not known of the listing before. What could be the downside for the seller in this situation?

I'm just curious and trying to better understand this issue from your perspective. I would appreciate any insight you might want to share with readers here.

Thanks,
Andrew

[Steve Ashton]

The complaints I get from companies and businesses are over the re-posting of photos copied off the web without credit given. Most companies have a copyright on their material and when that material is copied it is a violation of that copyright.

I also get some complaints that material is copied out of context or is quoted incorrctly.

[Piobair]

Somewhat off topic, but lends some credence to the idea that vendors are flipping ebay sales: A silver sgian that was recently sold on eBay turned up on a vendor's website at a bit over a 100% markup. Not a sponsor, but a respected merchant so I won't begrudge them the sale or identify them. I would imagine they'd also bid on notable sporrans that come up for auction. Some of these auctions require having a bit of a warchest if you hope to win.

[JPS]

Here's a fascinating specimen. It's got the tell-tale signs of a Forsyth sporran, particularly the back tab. Could be a later copy by one of the successors to RW Forsyth. There's no stamp to date it. Barrel tassels and braided accents on the body and flap are lovely, rarely seen touches. The kicker, though, is that this one is black!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/256586498258

Reminds me a lot of my favorite old brown sporran.

braided sporran.jpg