The Ghillie Shirt

[PatrickHughes123]

Excuse me?

I like both outfits. I just think the first one is a bit bland and boring. The second stands out more and is more Scottish looking, at least to me. You may see different.

[figheadair]

Images like the ones below!

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Ah, 20th century romantic reimaginings of what mid-18th century (Jacobite or Hanoverian) Highland Dress looked like. Nothing wrong with that, it’s just not accurate, as opposed to contemporary source material such as Morier's superb An Incident in the Rebellion of 1745

[CollinMacD]

Patrick,

I sense you are in love with this era, but I really want you to read this with an open mind. I think you must understand what you envision is not factual but indeed romantic. With all due respect to your vision of the Romantic Victorian Era, this might not be what you think. As a published American Historian, specializing in years of study of this specific era, it would be neglectful of me not to bring some reality to you about the difference of fact and fantasy of the Victorian Era. The Romantic Victorian Era you envision only exists in contemporary movies, novels and TV Series for our entertainment. Years of intense research and study, I can tell you this, it was an era a constant war that was fought on the fields of battle, employing thousand of men, using outdated tactics overcome by modern weapons, the killed ratio was the highest ever recorded, and the maimed only survived to regret living, as many remained in pain the rest of the shorten lives Many more people, then ever, brought the battles and wars to the civilian population in cities by using civilian terrorism. During this time no person had any idea what germs were, amputations occurred routinely, rather than treating and curing, life ending infections in hospitals, and homes, very poor nutrition, many countries suffered from famine, (your own ancestors in Wales and Ireland), alcoholism was an epidemic never consider a disease but celebrated, resulting in domestic abuse. Other diseases caused by environmental conditions such as outbreaks of influenza, typhoid cholera, consumption, swine flu, smallpox, measles, and so on. It was while researching a cholera outbreak in 1854 that London doctor John Snow produced his ground-breaking work on disease transmission, understanding for the first time infectious diseases. So many people had some time of health issue, average life span was about 41, more women died at childbirth then any other time, pollution rampart in the cities, causing Tuberculosis, human and horse waste on the streets, stagnate water because of lack of drainage, overcrowded with no pest control (rats and cockroaches running rampart), no electricity, running water, heat if you could afford it wood and coal, causing smoke and dirt residue. There was the rich and the poor, no middle class, and most of the time what was the middle class only worked to serve the rich. Poorhouses more common then ever. People with mental conditions were put away, hot treated living in the most horrendous conditions possible. Therefore all these factors – population explosion, immigration both foreign and domestic – added up and resulted in a scramble for any job available. I could go on and on, by now you should be catching my drift.

It was not until the Edwardian Era conditions improved with organizations of Unions, sanitation and medical improves, warfare tactics changed, but kill rates remained high because of the advancement of weapon into biological and mechanical advances in machines and weapons (Machine guns, accurate artillery, and ability to rapidly deploy logistics to the battlefield with trucks, trains, and manufacturing modernization. Electricity, water and sewer lines, increase in public transit, etc. Edwardian Era brought you from the Industrial Revolution to the Modern Era of society, not perfect but changes were positive.

Here is a description of London during the Victorian era:

Victorian London was a city of strong contrasts with new building and affluent development sitting uncomfortably alongside horribly overcrowded slums where people lived in conditions that would be unimaginable to us today. London's population increased dramatically during the 19th century, from about 1 million in 1800 to over 6 million a century later, largely due to industrialisation, the very large family sizes and reducing mortality rates. This growth far exceeded London's ability to look after the needs of its citizens and basic conditions for the many poorer families were overcrowded and insanitary.
Life was harsh, working hours were long and the conditions effectively unregulated, poverty was widespread, and as living conditions were so cramped and insanitary not surprisingly life expectancy was low. Bethnal Green, where a number of our ancestors' families lived in the early 1850s, was among the very poorest districts of London in the early years of Victoria's reign with life expectancy as low as 16. 1.


So you call this Romantic, my friend only in the movies, and TV can you get romantic. I suggest you read and understand real history, not watch TV and movies, but become a student of history by doing research and READ, not SEE. You will learn what our ancestors were like, and had to deal with everyday. Soon you will wonder how they survived, and never fully understand why your are here and so fortunate to live today, not then,

Don't want to burst your Romantic Victorian bubble, but I think you need to know the other side of the story. Romantic Victoria Era only existed for the rich, and royalty, sorry it's History.

[Tobus]

CollinMacD, you raise some valid points about life in Victorian times, but is that really any reason to spurn everything Victorian? I mean, by that logic, we should view the entirety of human history as something never to be celebrated. Humanity doesn't have a rosy past. We can acknowledge that while still appreciating parts of it.

I'm a big fan of Victorian styles in architecture, art, furniture and decor. My house is filled with Victorian antiques. And while I appreciate the manner of dress of that era, I don't feel the need to put on the clothing. Part of why I love the Victorian style is because of the history, both bad and good. Aesthetically, this time frame represented a wonderfully exquisite shift in the way people decorated the world around them, despite the harshness of the times (such as disease, war, poverty, etc.). There's always something to be learned by seeing how our ancestors created beauty in difficult times. Looking for that beauty and understanding it in context has always been fascinating to me.

So despite the popular disparagement of Victorian romanticism, I think it's a good thing to see it for what it is and appreciate it anyway.

(But I'm still not a fan of these fantasy shirts, LOL)

[CollinMacD]

CollinMacD, you raise some valid points about life in Victorian times, but is that really any reason to spurn everything Victorian? I mean, by that logic, we should view the entirety of human history as something never to be celebrated. Humanity doesn't have a rosy past. We can acknowledge that while still appreciating parts of it.

I'm a big fan of Victorian styles in architecture, art, furniture and decor. My house is filled with Victorian antiques. And while I appreciate the manner of dress of that era, I don't feel the need to put on the clothing. Part of why I love the Victorian style is because of the history, both bad and good. Aesthetically, this time frame represented a wonderfully exquisite shift in the way people decorated the world around them, despite the harshness of the times (such as disease, war, poverty, etc.). There's always something to be learned by seeing how our ancestors created beauty in difficult times. Looking for that beauty and understanding it in context has always been fascinating to me.

So despite the popular disparagement of Victorian romanticism, I think it's a good thing to see it for what it is and appreciate it anyway.

(But I'm still not a fan of these fantasy shirts, LOL)

Tobus,

My view is from an historical view, and I do agree with what you state. However, all generations qualify for man's inhumanity to man. However, the point of my post on the flip side of the Romantic Victorian Era was to paint of picture of not just the romance of it, but to remember the many horrific events. As a result it forced a massive change in society during the industrial Revolution. Plainly the Victorian era evolved society during this period to see their faults, understand the value of science, humanity, and the need to progress. Of course there are many great factors of this era too, which resulted in many advances such as, steam power, transportation, immigration, increase farming capacities, introduction of sanitation, running water, gasoline engines, medicine, women employment, social reformation, advancement in human dignity (abolishment of slavery), expanding middle class rights, new era in architecture, furniture, household, culture, manners. and so on. Point I was trying to make, don't take the face value of the Romantic Victoria era, as depicted in so many movies, TV and modern novels as a time of the gallant gentleman and his hooped dressed maiden riding off in the sunset to their estate on the Thames in a Victoria Carriage for a formal ball in the grand ballroom, this was reserved for the privlidged. I know in todays world, I am considered well off, in the Victoria Era, I certainly would not be invited to that Grand Bal. The Ghillie shirt is not romantic, nor is it authentic , to the period, but merely an interpretation of a modern version of Ole Scotland. I firmly believe you must know your history. You raise valid points and I hope I have address them from my perspective. It was an age of mechanical and social discovery, which the Edwardian era was based, and post WWI AND WWII lead to advancement. We certainly don't live in the perfect world, but we do live in one not as bad as I use to be. Don't disagree, merely stating often we have a tendency to believe the grass is greener in the other yard, until you take a more objective look. CHEERS>..

[FossilHunter]

Images like the ones below!

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Attachment 34805

Attachment 34806

I will point out that none of those jacobites are wearing white hose.

If you want a more Jacobite look it’s possible to achieve it while remaining authentic. The historical subforum has a lot of re-enactor photos and information.

[CollinMacD]

I will point out that none of those jacobites are wearing white hose.

If you want a more Jacobite look it’s possible to achieve it while remaining authentic. The historical subforum has a lot of re-enactor photos and information.

Jacobites did not wear hose to begin with, use "bag socks" simply material, usually wool or muslin, cut in shape of foot, halves sewn together to form of foot, held up with piece of material or twine. That is they could afford that. Knitted socks did exist but were not all that common, bag socks were common.

Notice the fit on the photo below of the bag socks:



Patrick's outfit is far from a Jacobite impression.

[FossilHunter]

Jacobites did not wear hose to begin with, use "bag socks" simply material, usually wool or muslin, cut in shape of foot, halves sewn together to form of foot, held up with piece of material or twine. That is they could afford that. Knitted socks did exist but were not all that common, bag socks were common.

Notice the fit on the photo below of the bag socks:



Patrick's outfit is far from a Jacobite impression.

That just makes my point though. There are better ways to effect a Jacobite look if desired than ghillie shirts and fly plaids.

This forum would be a great place to start. Especially with those like you who are knowledgeable about the subject.

[CollinMacD]

That just makes my point though. There are better ways to effect a Jacobite look if desired than ghillie shirts and fly plaids.

This forum would be a great place to start. Especially with those like you who are knowledgeable about the subject.

Agree, totally.

[PatrickHughes123]

Patrick,

I sense you are in love with this era, but I really want you to read this with an open mind. I think you must understand what you envision is not factual but indeed romantic. With all due respect to your vision of the Romantic Victorian Era, this might not be what you think. As a published American Historian, specializing in years of study of this specific era, it would be neglectful of me not to bring some reality to you about the difference of fact and fantasy of the Victorian Era. The Romantic Victorian Era you envision only exists in contemporary movies, novels and TV Series for our entertainment. Years of intense research and study, I can tell you this, it was an era a constant war that was fought on the fields of battle, employing thousand of men, using outdated tactics overcome by modern weapons, the killed ratio was the highest ever recorded, and the maimed only survived to regret living, as many remained in pain the rest of the shorten lives Many more people, then ever, brought the battles and wars to the civilian population in cities by using civilian terrorism. During this time no person had any idea what germs were, amputations occurred routinely, rather than treating and curing, life ending infections in hospitals, and homes, very poor nutrition, many countries suffered from famine, (your own ancestors in Wales and Ireland), alcoholism was an epidemic never consider a disease but celebrated, resulting in domestic abuse. Other diseases caused by environmental conditions such as outbreaks of influenza, typhoid cholera, consumption, swine flu, smallpox, measles, and so on. It was while researching a cholera outbreak in 1854 that London doctor John Snow produced his ground-breaking work on disease transmission, understanding for the first time infectious diseases. So many people had some time of health issue, average life span was about 41, more women died at childbirth then any other time, pollution rampart in the cities, causing Tuberculosis, human and horse waste on the streets, stagnate water because of lack of drainage, overcrowded with no pest control (rats and cockroaches running rampart), no electricity, running water, heat if you could afford it wood and coal, causing smoke and dirt residue. There was the rich and the poor, no middle class, and most of the time what was the middle class only worked to serve the rich. Poorhouses more common then ever. People with mental conditions were put away, hot treated living in the most horrendous conditions possible. Therefore all these factors – population explosion, immigration both foreign and domestic – added up and resulted in a scramble for any job available. I could go on and on, by now you should be catching my drift.

It was not until the Edwardian Era conditions improved with organizations of Unions, sanitation and medical improves, warfare tactics changed, but kill rates remained high because of the advancement of weapon into biological and mechanical advances in machines and weapons (Machine guns, accurate artillery, and ability to rapidly deploy logistics to the battlefield with trucks, trains, and manufacturing modernization. Electricity, water and sewer lines, increase in public transit, etc. Edwardian Era brought you from the Industrial Revolution to the Modern Era of society, not perfect but changes were positive.

Here is a description of London during the Victorian era:

Victorian London was a city of strong contrasts with new building and affluent development sitting uncomfortably alongside horribly overcrowded slums where people lived in conditions that would be unimaginable to us today. London's population increased dramatically during the 19th century, from about 1 million in 1800 to over 6 million a century later, largely due to industrialisation, the very large family sizes and reducing mortality rates. This growth far exceeded London's ability to look after the needs of its citizens and basic conditions for the many poorer families were overcrowded and insanitary.
Life was harsh, working hours were long and the conditions effectively unregulated, poverty was widespread, and as living conditions were so cramped and insanitary not surprisingly life expectancy was low. Bethnal Green, where a number of our ancestors' families lived in the early 1850s, was among the very poorest districts of London in the early years of Victoria's reign with life expectancy as low as 16. 1.


So you call this Romantic, my friend only in the movies, and TV can you get romantic. I suggest you read and understand real history, not watch TV and movies, but become a student of history by doing research and READ, not SEE. You will learn what our ancestors were like, and had to deal with everyday. Soon you will wonder how they survived, and never fully understand why your are here and so fortunate to live today, not then,

Don't want to burst your Romantic Victorian bubble, but I think you need to know the other side of the story. Romantic Victoria Era only existed for the rich, and royalty, sorry it's History.

First of all, I will say thank you for this information.

Second of all, it's not all fantasy. I do know history too, I know Scotland's history to a satisfactory level from ancient Caledonia to the Highland Romanticism period of the 19th Century. I think you misunderstood me, I love romanticism as well as history. I have been researching into the history of Scotland since 2016, two full years so I'm familiar with the different parts of it. I'm aware that living conditions were terrible and there was a lot of disease, terrible I know. I even said to myself a long time ago in my head "Okay, you can have a pan-Scottish identity and romanticize all you want, as long as you know the reality and history.", and this is how I view it. I know Scotland to a certain extent is a creation of the Highland Romanticism of the 19th Century, Walter Scott played a part in this. I watch Braveheart knowing it isn't true, I know both the romantic fictional Scottish Wars of Independence and the real Scottish Wars of Independence.