Ghillie brogues - why the dislike and resentment..?

[Macman]

Ah one of the cherubim (cherry bum)
Where did I hear that - some film maybe?

Anne the Pleater

It may have been the 7th Earl of Cardigan referring to the 11th Hussars, in the 1968 movie "The Charge of the Light Brigade".

[Troglodyte]

Ah one of the cherubim (cherry bum)
Where did I hear that - some film maybe?

Anne the Pleater

Flashman. As in At the Charge.

Sir Harry Flashman VC, who, as a junior officer in the regiment, started the Charge of the Light Brigade by, erm, fa*ting..!

He had an attack of good and proper flatulence which reverberated wonderfully off his saddle, and spooked all the horses. Once his bolted, the others followed. What a hero old Flashy was..!

I believe the Cherrybums got their moniker by being caught eating cherries, while resting in a cherry orchard awaiting further instructions, when the rest of the army were in the thick of business. Their tight cherry-red breeks made the pun all the more fitting.

[Ivor]

I think I may be betraying my age here but I come from an age when it was normal to hire clothing for dress occasions as my family did not have the wherewithal to lavish dinner suits or highland dress on me. Perhaps nowadays with changed economic times there is more wealth about and more people can afford to own these items, even if only used occasionally. I do detect, however, a distinct undertone in respect of hired outfits as if those so unfortunate as to rely on such a source are somehow beneath contempt and failing the standards expected here. I know this is probably far from the truth and that all who aspire to wear Scottish Highland dress are welcome here. But the impression still persists that those who resort to rental companies are somehow not worthy of inclusion.

[Father Bill]

Just disappointment in how poorly the hire shops often do their jobs for good people who may not know what they need.

[MacKenzie]

Just disappointment in how poorly the hire shops often do their jobs for good people who may not know what they need.

That right there is the crux of it.

Forget highland attire for a moment. Think about tux/gown rental for the junior/senior prom or a wedding. They will rent you some absolutely hideous outfits and tell you that you look good.

There's not one iota of sartorial advice. The credit card transaction just needs to be approved.

[Troglodyte]

I think I may be betraying my age here but I come from an age when it was normal to hire clothing for dress occasions as my family did not have the wherewithal to lavish dinner suits or highland dress on me. Perhaps nowadays with changed economic times there is more wealth about and more people can afford to own these items, even if only used occasionally. I do detect, however, a distinct undertone in respect of hired outfits as if those so unfortunate as to rely on such a source are somehow beneath contempt and failing the standards expected here. I know this is probably far from the truth and that all who aspire to wear Scottish Highland dress are welcome here. But the impression still persists that those who resort to rental companies are somehow not worthy of inclusion.

I, too, detect a distinct anti-hire sentiment in the USA, when it comes to rental clothing - especially Highland dress - which is not felt here in the UK.

We only have to look at the likes of Moss Bross supplying morning-coats and top hats for regular events such as Ascot, to see that at even high levels of 'Society' hiring an outfit is quite the done thing.

At the old Queen's coronation in 1953, when the nation's peers were all at the abbey for the ceremony in their various robes and coronets, very few actually had their own. The vast majority of them went to costume-hire outlets to be kitted-out, and why not? Those lords and ladies who have spoken about it make it sound as if it was all part of the fun and a bit of a joke.

There seems to be quite a wide-spread fear in North America of doing it wrong when it comes to Highland dress, which has given rise to codifying styles and the various elements in a way that simply does not exist at home in Scotland. There are no doubt good reasons for this, but it means that a fair amount of what is thought right and proper in Scotland, and so the wider UK also, is shunned through fear of what others might think.

This seems such a shame, as a crucial element like footwear is compromised to the detriment of the whole outfit. Instead of wearing a distictly and uniquely Highland form of footwear such as the ghillie-brogue (irrespective of its origin or antiquity) a non-Highland, non-Scottish style of shoe is preferred and recommended.

The North American 'look' to Highland dress is distinctive and fairly easy to recognise, but near impossible to define. At my clan gatherings, the various nationals can be determined by how their wear the clothes. I know before I have spoken to them, or even heard them speak, that another clansman is, say, French or American by their style.

Some years ago, when in Normandy, I was with friends when we encountered a group of kilties coming the other way. My friends naturally assumed they were Scots, but I identified them as American by their style, long before we could hear any speach. And sure enough, their accents gave them away.

None of what I say is in any way any kind of criticism, but my own opinion based on experience and observation. However, when it comes to any form of national costume, it seems to me that to follow the practices of the native population is the logical thing to do when new to it.

After all, if wanting to wear a kimono or sari, would you rather follow the advice and practice of the Japanese or Indians who wear them out of long-established practice, or be guided by those who are new to it? And your choice of footwear in both circumstances would be cricial, I would think.

[Ivor]

So really you are saying that what comes across as a negative attitude towards kilt-hire is essentially a cultural difference given the preponderance of Americans here with their own societal attitude towards the costume hire industry. You do say, however, that there appears a “wide-spread fear” of doing it wrong which may account for the obvious susceptibility to regard one individual as the oracle of all things kilted, who must be obeyed and never contradicted.
I have never thought of Americans as unquestioning followers and, in fact, they always seem to happily concoct their own versions of whatever it is so perhaps this is all part of them developing their own kilt-wearing culture independently of anything Scottish, especially if items such as gillie brogues are difficult to source so, what the hell, we’ll do our American thing and just wear the shoes we can get in the store.

[Father Bill]

That right there is the crux of it.

Forget highland attire for a moment. Think about tux/gown rental for the junior/senior prom or a wedding. They will rent you some absolutely hideous outfits and tell you that you look good.

There's not one iota of sartorial advice. The credit card transaction just needs to be approved.

One more thought in this regard: If you're hiring on a budget, and you already have dress shoes, then you don't need to hire shoes at all. The Oxfords, toe caps and brogues will all do fine. Thus the "Hire shop" look also suggests an element of scam that makes knowledgeable people roll their eyes sympathetically. That is in no way a criticism of the wearer, but rather of the money-grubbing instincts that such footwear may infer.

[Troglodyte]

So really you are saying that what comes across as a negative attitude towards kilt-hire is essentially a cultural difference given the preponderance of Americans here with their own societal attitude towards the costume hire industry. You do say, however, that there appears a “wide-spread fear” of doing it wrong which may account for the obvious susceptibility to regard one individual as the oracle of all things kilted, who must be obeyed and never contradicted.
I have never thought of Americans as unquestioning followers and, in fact, they always seem to happily concoct their own versions of whatever it is so perhaps this is all part of them developing their own kilt-wearing culture independently of anything Scottish, especially if items such as gillie brogues are difficult to source so, what the hell, we’ll do our American thing and just wear the shoes we can get in the store.

Kind of...

Back in the late 1970s, J. Charles Thompson brought out So You're Going to Wear the Kilt which was another but timely how-to guide specifically for the American market.

It borrowed very heavily (some might say plagerised) Mackinnon of Dunakin's work from almost 20 years previously, to the extent that certain personal observations are repeated and the illustrations almost identical. But what Thompson makes clear is that he is talking to Americans in America, and adapts his advice accordingly. He draws attention to American practices and their approach to Highland dress, and points out that certain things are not done, or will not be seen at home in Scotland.

Thompson's own personal views on sporrans is regularly misquoted in discussions such as those on this site, and these have created a kind of antithesis (vociferous objection in some cases) to styles that have popular following in Scotland, and none of the stigma. But these have coloured American kilt-wearers' attitudes for the past 40 years or more.

Interestingly enough, he speaks favourably about ghillie-brogues, but admits that what we would call buckle-brogues, he calls 'Mary-Janes' and suggets they are too Alice in Wonderland for Americans - despite saying they are perfectly standard for men in Scotland. And yet he recommends ghillie-brogues for day-wear.

So, even as early as the 1970s, Thompson was aware of this mid-Atlantic divide in what is thought right and proper with Highland dress.

There are certain individuals who have taken it upon themselves in recent years to be the self-appointed arbiters of what is, and what is not, correct or acceptable - particularly where civilian wear is concerned. They are outspoken and take no prisoners on other forums and social media, and they seem to consider their personal views or tastes as the only laws and codes to be followed.

So much is this the case that they will refer to Victorian or Edwardian styles as being before 'traditional' Highland dress came about! What they really mean, but express, I feel, in misleading terms, is that the mid-20th century casual styles that came in after the First World War and were no more than the fashions of the era (as indeed were the Victorian and Edwardian versions previously) are promoted as the ideal.

In the way that Webster's dictionary is 'American Usage' of English, which differs significantly at times from that spoken by the natives in the home country, Thompson's little guide does the same with Highland dress. It might stoke-up opposition, but having Scottish original and 'American Usage' with Highland dress might make things easier for the novice kiltie when it comes to getting kitted-out.

[kilted2000]

I have noticed from various online forums and groups that many Americans are more concerned with matching things, and 'doing things right' than kilt wearers in Scotland.