Preposterous video and my response

[geomick]

Some sources make the claim that there were 2 main reasons for Hadrian's Wall. 1. a controlled point of entry network to tax goods coming in from the North. 2. a way to prevent raiders who were harassing Roman settlements from easily escaping North to hide from the Romans.

[OC Richard]

I've read a pile of books about Roman Britain and the bottom line is that nobody is entirely sure what function the walls that Hadrian built around his Empire were meant to have.

One mistake many people make is thinking that Hadrian's wall was unique. In fact, Hadrian had walls constructed to delineate Roman boundaries across Germany and North Africa as well as Britain.

The most mystifying thing is that specific boundary-lines flew in the face of how the borders of the Empire worked.

Romans considered their Imperium being boundless (Imperium sine fine). In fact the borders were layer upon layer. Beyond the Provinces were kingdoms of the so-called "client kings" ("friends and allies of the Roman people") and beyond those were kingdoms and/or tribes which had looser relationships with Rome. Thus you would encounter Roman traders and Roman diplomats well beyond the edge of the Provinces proper.

This is why Hadrian's system didn't fit Roman practice. There were always Roman forts north of Hadrian's Wall- going beyond the wall didn't mean going beyond Roman influence and control.

So the Romans themselves probably didn't see the point of these walls.

Best we can figure they were there, as you say, to help regulate trade. Thousands of people crossed through the walls every day, and they were taxed for everything they brought across.

Also as you say probably to inhibit banditry, which was a constant problem in the Empire.

[OC Richard]

Another common mistake is the idea that Hadrian's Wall was a fortification.

We've all seen the imaginative illustrations: there's purportedly Hadrian's Wall, looking like a proper Mediaeval fort, with a walkway and crenelations along the top, which the Romans are fighting from.

But there's no evidence for this, and good evidence against it.

First, the Romans didn't fight from inside of forts. When an enemy approached they would pour out of their camp and assemble in the open in their tried-and-true formation, where they reckoned to have their best chance of success. And they had indeed defeated everybody this way. (We call these Roman structures "forts" but "camps" better describes their function.)

Second, though the top stones of Hadrian's Wall don't survive anywhere along it, similar walls in other parts of the Empire do survive intact, and these walls are topped with a row of simple pointed capstones.

What these walls have in common are small buildings spaced out along them, within sight of each other. We know that (at night at least) Romans used fire to send signals along these watchtowers. What we don't know is if they had some kind of semaphore which they used during daytime.

Generally the big forts are well behind, and can send aid when needed.

[Allan Thomson]

I've read a pile of books about Roman Britain and the bottom line is that nobody is entirely sure what function the walls that Hadrian built around his Empire were meant to have.

One mistake many people make is thinking that Hadrian's wall was unique. In fact, Hadrian had walls constructed to delineate Roman boundaries across Germany and North Africa as well as Britain.

The most mystifying thing is that specific boundary-lines flew in the face of how the borders of the Empire worked.

Romans considered their Imperium being boundless (Imperium sine fine). In fact the borders were layer upon layer. Beyond the Provinces were kingdoms of the so-called "client kings" ("friends and allies of the Roman people") and beyond those were kingdoms and/or tribes which had looser relationships with Rome. Thus you would encounter Roman traders and Roman diplomats well beyond the edge of the Provinces proper.

This is why Hadrian's system didn't fit Roman practice. There were always Roman forts north of Hadrian's Wall- going beyond the wall didn't mean going beyond Roman influence and control.

So the Romans themselves probably didn't see the point of these walls.

Best we can figure they were there, as you say, to help regulate trade. Thousands of people crossed through the walls every day, and they were taxed for everything they brought across.

Also as you say probably to inhibit banditry, which was a constant problem in the Empire.

Not just across Germany, many years ago I walked part of the Limas in the Hessen forests with the Scouts. A couple of years back in the Netherlands I walked another part of it by chance with some friends. It was strange thinking it was over 32 years between!!

[Canadian Vet]

"Build it and make the Picts pay for it!" Emperor Hadrian was quoted as saying.

[OC Richard]

I thought of this thread when listening to this video of a fascination discussion about Septimius Severus, which of course touches on his Scottish campaigns at the end of his life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSmf7xUJv9Q

There's a telling bit at 24:22

On the other hand, they point out that the Midland Valley of Scotland probably would have been able to produce sufficient crop value to offset the price of Roman occupation, and raise the question "why didn't the Romans annexe that region?"

They bring up an interesting consideration I'd not heard raised before.

We know that prior to the Romans invading Britain there was tremendous trade between Gaul (a Roman province) and Britain, the loss of the tax revenue of which would offset the financial gains the Romans would reap by directly squeezing every bit of worth out of a conquered Britain.

A good part of this trade was vast quantities of fine Roman wine and other Roman luxury goods purchased by British aristocracy (especially in the southeast) which had already been attracted to the Roman way of life to some degree. Thus even before the Roman invasion the process of Romanisation had already begun.

In the north of Britain not so much! The natives continued to dwell in traditional British round-houses while in the south Roman style towns and houses became the norm.

The presenters of that video make the point that with "the people of Caledonia" the Romans didn't have the aid of pre-Romanisation which so often helped the Romans win the hearts and minds of those the Romans were considering annexing.

[Pleater]

The weather might have something to do with it.
Many people fail to realise just how far it is travelling from the south coast of England to the north of Scotland, and the difference in the weather and climate before you even get to Hadrian's wall.

Down here on the coast where I now live there are grapes growing outside, we have outdoor seating in many places, with a roof over as it does rain a bit, but with a few modifications it is possible to live a very Mediterranean lifestyle.

In the Midlands - well - Roman soldiers would probably want to add leggings to their uniforms, and write home asking their mum to send them some vests and thick socks.

Further north still, but still in England, the whole legion would probably be complaining about their feet, the cold and the rain and the wind, and how everything goes rusty, mouldy or just falls apart. They'd probably be volunteering for anything which would give them a reason not to venture further north, such as building a wall.

Another factor could be how slowly trees grow in Scotland, and once cleared woodland doesn't regenerate on its own. That could have made a significant difference to the effort required to construct just about anything.

Anne the Pleater

[OC Richard]

The weather might have something to do with it.
Many people fail to realise just how far it is travelling from the south coast of England to the north of Scotland, and the difference in the weather and climate before you even get to Hadrian's wall.

Down here on the coast where I now live there are grapes growing outside, we have outdoor seating in many places, with a roof over as it does rain a bit, but with a few modifications it is possible to live a very Mediterranean lifestyle.

Don't Devon and Cornwall have the best weather in Britain? My wife and I are addicted to Escape to the Country and Location Location Location and when they've been showing houses on the south coast we've sometimes seen palm trees (which along with bungalows gives a California feel).

In the Midlands - well - Roman soldiers would probably want to add leggings to their uniforms...

Yes Roman uniforms changed drastically from their Mediterranean lightweight short-sleeved tunics and sandals in Germania and Britannia, with breeks borrowed from the Gauls, proper boots, thick socks, heavy British-made cloaks, and so forth.

...and write home asking their mum to send them some vests and thick socks.

They did do, and such letters have been found at Vindolanda.

Further north still, but still in England, the whole legion would probably be complaining about their feet, the cold and the rain and the wind, and how everything goes rusty, mouldy or just falls apart. They'd probably be volunteering for anything which would give them a reason not to venture further north, such as building a wall.

For sure the Italians hated the weather. Though Hadrian's Wall wasn't manned by Roman Legions (the Legionary forts were York, Chester, and Caerleon).

The foreign auxiliary troops who did man the wall were from all over. The German auxiliaries wouldn't have been as put off by the weather, but there were also auxiliaries from warm climes like Syria and Spain for whom it would have seemed hellish.