Little holes in my UK Kilts? Silence on the UK Board

[The Wizard of BC]

Arrogcow,

If you will re-read my post you will see I did not say Utilikilts ran a sweatshop.
I was biting my tongue not to go on a rant about the mass production of product without regard for quality.

I'll go on that rant now.

The concepts of mass production were originally designed to improve quality while increasing production ability. In this day and age those concepts have many times been used to increased profits without regard for workers conditions, quality of end product or enviromental or community impact.
Many modern production machines actually decrease quality. (holes in fabric caused my drilling thru multipe layers has a sole reason of doing a job as fast as it can possibly be done.) Time = Wages. Therefore, every minute saved is money not expended. The best example I can give of this is the US Auto industry in the '60s and '70s. Until the Japanese showed the world that Mass Production could increase Quality, improve workers conditions and still increase profits, "planned obsolesance" was the rule. In other words, Just build it fast, if it breaks they'll buy another one.

Most mass production procedures and equiptment are out of the financial reach of most small companies. Therefore the only choice is to sub-contract to an existing firm. But any time you add a layer of manpower or management you decrease profit to the original company. This usually results in increased cost of product to the consumer.

And most mass production methods require machinery. I don't know if you've ever been in a real garment factory, but those places are sweatshops no matter where they are in the world or how much you pay the employees. If you put industrial sewing machines with their constantly running and humming motors, add powered fabric saws, add constant pressure steam tables, add all the other machinery and you have one noisy, hot, unpleasant work enviroment.
Then ask your workers to sit in one position all day, feeding fabric into a machine capable of 6000 stitches/min. and you have a mind numbing and potentally dangerious situation. Without very good hearing protection, a garment worker can lose 50% of their hearing in under five years. (documentation can be found through OSHA)
This is why most garment worker jobs have gone overseas. Most North American workers simply won't put up with the conditions.
(And by the way, $1.50 / hr. is the average wage for machine operators in India, Pakastan, Thailand, Burma, and Mainland China. Not bad in a country whos' average annual income is less than $5000.00. Perhaps that's why there are waiting lines at the employment offices.) documentation thru U.S. State Dept.

Does everyone see where I'm coming from? Aggrocow, I did not attack the Utilikilt compay. I owe nothing to them. I got nothing from them. I was making kilts long before I even heard the name Utilikilt. And then it was derogitory from someone who saw my kilts and said. "Oh my God your not making one of those Utilikilt things are you."
In fact I am having to deal with the Utilikilt reputation and frankly, it has hurt my business. For example; During the last Gay Pride festival here in Victoria, the largest signs in the parade were held by some men sporting their Utilikilts which read "Make Utiliskirts the official uniform of Gay Pride." and "Wear your Utiliskirt and let everyone know your Gay." This in Canada where Gay and Lesbian marriage is legal, and still I get questions from customers asking if they buy a Freedom Kilt will it be mistaken for a Utilikilt.

I appoligize to anyone who mistook my post as an attack on The Utilikilt Company!

p.s.
And another thing. I support Rocky, Bear, Robert and Jeff because, and for no other reason, than because they participate on this forum, they produce a high quality product, and they support their product with outstanding Customer Service. (I'm sorry I havent's met the guys from Union Kilts yet and haven't seen their kilts in person. I don't mean to slight them by ommision.)

Enough rant. except to say if you thought I libeled your favorite company Arrogcow, then I welcome a visit from your lawyer. And to all those who send PM's and e-mails threatening Patent Infringment lawsuits. Hey guys, bring it on. I'll let my product stand for itself.

[bubba]

I'm still laughing that Utilikilts patented a style of pleating with a center box pleat and the rest of the pleats running in both directions from that. They didn't invent it, it was already done a long time ago. There's a kilt pleated that way at the Kingussie Folk Museum that was made in 1800.

[The Wizard of BC]

Warning!!!!!
This is not an attack on anyone or anything!!!!!

All you have to do to get a patent is to have your lawyer prove that no one has ever applied for a patent on that exact thing before.

[Riverkilt]

Good Golly.Adam..didn't know I hated UK or that ALL of my UKs have had problems.

Yup, had a 3 month wait for my first UK.

Yup, had the hem fall out of my second UK

Yup, had a bad snap out of the box on my denim UK

Yup, have drill holes in my two survivals and one of my workman's

Still won't own the color deal on the leather since I'm positive it was on black when I pushed the order button. Never did occur to me to order brown and I would have had to consciously switch the dealie thing to brown. But have come to love my brown UK and trust that the Gods knew what they were doing.

Yes I wish it would have had pockets back when I ordered it.

Yes I was UK dealie of the month but I only applied, UK made the decision, not me.

Yes my black workman's has no apparent problems and I wear it a lot.

Yes my tan original seems to have arrived in perfect shape and held up.

Yes my navy, olive, and tan mockers seem to have no defects.

Yes, there are probably some folks who own more UKs than my eleven and who have spent more money on UKs than I and who wear UKs more than I do, and who talk up UK more than I do and who pass out more UK cards than I do. But I doubt there are many.

How anyone could hate such a trippy company as UK is beyond me.

How anyone could not give honest feedback to a company they had high hopes for is beyond me.
There is nothing more valuable to a manufacturer than honest customer feedback.

As far as looking for feedback from the X Marks and UK boards, just seems to me that's what they're there for....sure has saved me a few times.

What I recall is when other kiltmakers are "knocked" by others on the board there's a rush of thank yous for the warning.

Now, we know that if we order a 100% cotton UK that there's a good chance that holes will begin to develop along the pleat lines.

Don't know that anyone who happened to get my survivals wouldn't remark at the two lines of holes when they hung the kilts up to dry.

So shoot the messenger if you must...

But don't know that there's anything you could say to change my behavior at my ripe old age....sorry.

And I claim my right to my voice.

I am honored that you've tracked my posts so well.

Ron

[bubba]

Warning!!!!!
This is not an attack on anyone or anything!!!!!

All you have to do to get a patent is to have your lawyer prove that no one has ever applied for a patent on that exact thing before.

Yeah Steve, I know, I just find it humorous. Hey, I'm not knocking em for it, it's just American business. It's just the implication they created it that gets me giggling like Renfield. ;)

[Riverkilt]

Would like to support Steve's characterization of cut and sew factories. I started working after school and on weekends in my family's small cut and sew business at age nine. That continued through high school and when home from college on vacations, then for six years after that full time.

At age 12 we merged with a larger company that eventually employed over 1,000 workers in four large plants.

There isn't much I haven't done including run power machines and do clandestine time studies to determine piece rates.

There's no sound like that of a cut and sew plant in operation...and its the same from plant to plant even though the garments change. Earplugs were unknown back then (1950s -70s).

Its hard repetative work - and often dangerous. Racing a lady to the hospital who had sewn her fingers together or lopped off a finger on a snap machine or die cutter was not an unusual event.

Even though the company I worked for paid better than Union wages to keep the Union out (they also paid bribes to the union organizers to lay off) those plants were still sweatshops in every sense of the word.

How anyone can sit in the same place and do the same repetative motion, under pressure, for 8 hours a day is beyond me...whatever cut and sew plant they work in.

Ron

[Canuck]

RKilt black or brown leather $750 (Canadian) + 7% sales tax is $802.50 (C) using the conversion rate on RKilts' web site that means a leather is $664.71, or $35 (US) cheaper than a UK leather (I don't know if there are import duties from Canada). The Denim/twill kilt is $250 (C) or $267.50 with tax, making it $221.57 (US) or $36 more (US) that the UK workman's (which is the most comparable UK). Before someone jumps on it, no sales tax if bought over the internet and one does not live in Washington state.

Custom sizing? You only ask a waist and length just like UK which implies that they come as standard patterns, not that you are doing custom work for each waist/hip differential. You do ask what size people want the side pocket pouches they want and that is custom work, cool. Is your denim really going to last longer than my duc cloth workmans? Really? I have one that is nearly 4 years old, that I do carpentry in and it still holds up really well. Anything more bullit proof would have to be Kevlar or something.

I'm not trying to knock you. I want an RKilt, I really do. I have always wanted a UK workman's in denim, but they do that. No only do you do it, but I actually like the look of yours better, I just haven't convinced myself that I like it $36 (plus what ever import duties are) better. Now for that price, if you offered it flannel lined like Jeff at PK, I would buy it tomorrow.

I'm sorry for picking on you (but you did jump in with the, "I'm cheaper, but provide better service" thing. Additionally, I suspect that with your lower overhead (I.E. not paying dozens of employees) you probably make more profit per kilt). You have (to the best of my knowledge) not jumped on the let's insult UK bus. Other kiltmakers have, and that was what I was trying to address in my first post.

I guess what I'm saying is, kiltmakers market your own products unique features, don't try to play the "I'm better than whoever" game.

I take your points, and with the fluctuating dollar it is hard to always be exact. With all do respect I'm not after the American market. There are enough kilt makers there
I do ask for the hip measurement as well and I don't make the generic size I make it to the size of the person. The length they ask for be it 21" or 28" they get that, the same for waist and hip. I don't build or stock a certain size, each one is indepedantly built. As for higher profit margin I don't think so. I have to amortize the cost of my equipement over fewer numbers of kilts, it takes me 12-18 hours to build one unit. I'm not racing to get the kilt done so there is less likely chance of it coming apart.
For more durable than canvas duc... I give you hemp.
As for the $36 more, that could be 4 hours out of your paycheck or an hour out of your paycheck it's all realitive.
Support Jeff he has a new addition to his family he could use some coin. My eldest daughter has been accepted at one of the top Universities in Canada for engineering (I need serious coin for that...LOL)
Basically, as you have clearly pointed out, (thank you), each kiltmaker has something different to offer, style value for goods, workmanship etc. We search for brand loyalty, it is the nature of business to point out that you are better than the next guy. You, the consumer get to choose where you spend your hard earned cash and what you are willing to support, ain't that cool?
UK did something to the kilt industry that Henry Ford did for the auto industry and we go from there....
Heck I gotta get back to work I;ve gotta get some kilts built or I'm gonna be toast.
All the best Arrogcow
Cheers
Robert

[Jimmy Carbomb]

The only comment that got me laughing hysterically was that kilt companies owe ANYTHING to UtiliKilts!

Holy Schnikeys... THAT'S funny!!!

Some day, sit down and have a few beers with the UK owner (or play a game of pool with him) and get his take on what they're looking to market to... how they're looking to appear in the industry... who they're appealing to.

Are some kilt makers copying the design or at least slightly changing their design for their own profits and marketing? Yup. Are other companies riding on the changes from the second company? Yup. Is this limited to VERY FEW companies in the kilt industry? Oh hell yes... and a VERY narrow few.

UtiliKilts purposely are NOT Celtic in the least, nor will they ever be. I know a "budding capitalist" that was told that "marketing to the Irish and Scottish with tartans" was "a nice niche"... like it was something new.

As was posted in another thread, there's room for the solid casuals and the tartan/solid traditionals alike. This is an OUTSTANDING thread to discern between the two.

Some solid casual kilt companies owe a "thanks" to UtiliKilt for their broad marketing and popularity.

Not one single tartan kilt maker owes them anything. They look different. They're manufactured differently. Most importantly... they're marketed to an entirely different mind-set, population, culture and customer base.

Yes, I own both and also know the difference. There's a whole business and marketing side to this that the general public doesn't know about. Therein lies the reasons why UtiliKilt does what they do (and very well), while the tartan/solid more-Celtic companies do what they do. UtiliKilt is marketing to a MUCH larger base than are the Celtic companies. Think about it.

[arrogcow]

Jimmy, my comment was directed at the casual kilt companies (by that I mean the non tartan, pocket sporting, solid/print/cammo kilt making companies). UK created the market and all the others have jumped on the band wagon because they see that there is a demand for such a product. I think this is a great idea,

In fact back in 2001 I seriously considered doing it myself. Strangely I was going to call the company AmeriKilts, and the designs I was working on are basically what RKilts non leather are. I never followed through (I don't sew really well, and was trying to convince a seamstress friend that this was a good idea). Then the real Amerikilts showed up, then Buzz Kidders canvas and finally all the rest. I decided that the world didn't need mine.

I realize that UK doesn't promote itself as celtic (though they sell at a heck of a lot of celtic festivals), never said they were, as for them selling to a "an entirely different mind-set, population, culture and customer base," I think you're somewhat wrong. I spent years trying to find affordable kilts of any kind (and it is a Scottish heratige thing) always failing miserably. Before UK the only things out there were SportKilts (it may not have been sport kilts then but it was basically the same product) and a small outfit in Chicago that were marketing to the gay market (their web site played a MIDI version of ,"It's raining men." and there were animations to click on and see exactly what their models had on under the kilt).

As for traditional kilt makers owing UK something, again I never said that. But both here and on the UK Yahoo group, I have seen over and over again, guys that have started with a casual and then moved up to a tank or two. Many of the traditionals are now selling cheaper, more modern, versions of kilts as well, to try and meet the demand for a more everyday wear (as opposed to twice a year wear) kilt. Frankly if any kilt maker is not doing more business today than they were 5 years ago, they must be living in a cave, or just not want to do more business. So I guess that trad kilt makers do owe some thanks to UK as well for starting a trend where kilts are becoming more accepted wear.

Adam

[arrogcow]

I do ask for the hip measurement as well and I don't make the generic size I make it to the size of the person. The length they ask for be it 21" or 28" they get that, the same for waist and hip. I don't build or stock a certain size, each one is indepedantly built. As for higher profit margin I don't think so. I have to amortize the cost of my equipement over fewer numbers of kilts, it takes me 12-18 hours to build one unit. I'm not racing to get the kilt done so there is less likely chance of it coming apart.
For more durable than canvas duc... I give you hemp.

All the best Arrogcow
Cheers
Robert

Your web site doesn't mention hip measurements, and it implies that you have standard lengths like UK. Now that I know that, I agree that the extra $36 is probably worth it. I have actually wished in the past that your (and some of your fellows) web sites, were a little more detailed. What fabric (exactly) can I get from you, can I see a pic in each color, etc. Keep up the good work though.

I am probably getting my next kilt from Jeff, I too have a little one showing up in October, and he needs his first kilt to match daddies.

Adam