Is Black Watch a "Generic" Tartan?

[macwilkin]

My understanding of the situation, although limited, was that the Black Watch government tartan was worn by the "Black and Tans," amongst others. The Black and Tans were "beasts of the lowest degree," according to the eyewitness descriptions of their activities on behalf of the British crown in pre-republic Ireland in the years between the end of WWI and the partition of Ireland. They were very greatly despised. A friend of mine who was first in Ireland in the 1970's said that an aunt of his - whose family members remained there as contrasted with thousands who emigrated to North America during those immediate pre-Republic days - would get absolutely flintey-eyed when speaking about the Black and Tans' depredations at a time when she would have been a teenager.

From a popular song of an early era of the 20th Century:
"Come on out ye Black and Tans
Come and fight me, like a man
Show your wife how you won medals
Down in Flanders
Tell her how the IRA
Made you run, like Hell, away
From the green and lovely lanes
Of Killeshandra"

There are still Irish-Americans in our region who cringe or turn away when they see anyone dressed in Black Watch. It's interesting that this is the tartan of choice for an Ancient Order of Hibernians pipe band in a nearby town. Their response to the Black and Tans debate? Many a brave Irish lad saw military service in such dress . . .

Mac

Mac,

the Black and Tans and the Black Watch are two different things all together. The Black Watch, the Royal Highland Regiment, is a regiment of the British Army. The "Black & Tans" were part of the old Royal Irish Constabulary and were recruited during the Anglo-Irish War of 1919-1922, mostly from out-of-work First World War veterans in the UK. The Tans and the Auxillaries, or "Auxies" (another auxillary police force of the RIC) were NOT British soldiers, but para-military police.

Neither the Tans nor the Auxies wore kilts or tartan, although they did wear khaki balmorals. Their name came from their uniform, which was a mixture of army khaki and RIC uniforms, which prompted the Irish to nickname them after a famous breed of hunting hound, a "black and tan".

I can understand the confusion of the two because of the similarity of names, but again, the Black and Tans and the Black Watch are not the same.

Regards,

Todd

[MacConnachie]

Thanks, Todd.

I see clearly that the information I had on how the Black and Tans were originally formed was in error. The stories stated that there was a large criminal element within some of the groups, and that there were Black and Tans recruits from England and Scotland in the main.

I had never seen a picture or other representation of a Black and Tan in a kilt, so, as I earlier indicated my information was limited. I just did not comprehend how limited, and how erroneous, it was.

So, having discussed what these different groups and regiments were NOT, do you have historical information as to activities of the Royal Highland Regiment which may have directly affected the Irish? Which elements of the Regiment were posted in Ireland at various points in time? Was the recruitment of Irish boys into the Black Watch (and other regiments) by the "much beloved" recruiting sergeants (is there a sarcasm smiley?) a contributing factor in the intense dislike some Irish have for the Black Watch?

Thanks, again, for setting me straight.
Mac

[highlander_Daz]

Ive never known Irish people to be offended by Black Watch Tartan and Ive attended many "Irish" weddings and seen many people wearing black watch, maybe its a bit of coloniolism creeping in there.
The 42nd Highland Regiment are heros to the people of scotland regardless of what may have happened in the past. There conduct in Iraq recently only served to underline this upon entring the "triangle of death" a senior black watch officer emerged from his tank, removed his body armour and helmet. donned a Glengarry and piped the regiment into the war zone. my great great uncle who was in the Black watch was killed in the first world war. and was buried in France. to anyone who is offended by the Tartan of such brave fighting men should, in my opinion go and lie down in a dark room and reflect that all the freedoms we enjoy today are only available to us because of the sacrifice of these and others like them.

[Dreadbelly]

Ive never known Irish people to be offended by Black Watch Tartan and Ive attended many "Irish" weddings and seen many people wearing black watch, maybe its a bit of coloniolism creeping in there.
The 42nd Highland Regiment are heros to the people of scotland regardless of what may have happened in the past. There conduct in Iraq recently only served to underline this upon entring the "triangle of death" a senior black watch officer emerged from his tank, removed his body armour and helmet. donned a Glengarry and piped the regiment into the war zone. my great great uncle who was in the Black watch was killed in the first world war. and was buried in France. to anyone who is offended by the Tartan of such brave fighting men should, in my opinion go and lie down in a dark room and reflect that all the freedoms we enjoy today are only available to us because of the sacrifice of these and others like them.

Well said.

[Ranald]

Ive never known Irish people to be offended by Black Watch Tartan and Ive attended many "Irish" weddings and seen many people wearing black watch, maybe its a bit of coloniolism creeping in there.
The 42nd Highland Regiment are heros to the people of scotland regardless of what may have happened in the past. There conduct in Iraq recently only served to underline this upon entring the "triangle of death" a senior black watch officer emerged from his tank, removed his body armour and helmet. donned a Glengarry and piped the regiment into the war zone. my great great uncle who was in the Black watch was killed in the first world war. and was buried in France. to anyone who is offended by the Tartan of such brave fighting men should, in my opinion go and lie down in a dark room and reflect that all the freedoms we enjoy today are only available to us because of the sacrifice of these and others like them.

Bravo.

[Archangel]

Ive never known Irish people to be offended by Black Watch Tartan and Ive attended many "Irish" weddings and seen many people wearing black watch, maybe its a bit of coloniolism creeping in there.
The 42nd Highland Regiment are heros to the people of scotland regardless of what may have happened in the past. There conduct in Iraq recently only served to underline this upon entring the "triangle of death" a senior black watch officer emerged from his tank, removed his body armour and helmet. donned a Glengarry and piped the regiment into the war zone. my great great uncle who was in the Black watch was killed in the first world war. and was buried in France. to anyone who is offended by the Tartan of such brave fighting men should, in my opinion go and lie down in a dark room and reflect that all the freedoms we enjoy today are only available to us because of the sacrifice of these and others like them.

Yes, and I like it, tool

The point about colonialism is very important to most of the discussions on this board. A lot of the conflicts here are based on some mythology about over there. Without going into it, there has been a lot of censorship that is only being lifted now. Best to make sure of the facts first. Last note on this drifting topic focus: there were Highland regiments stationed in Ireland during the '70s at least. They've always been buffers and I'll leave that there. Understand that they would not have been kilted in any case.

Yes, Black Watch is generic, it would be nice to have a military link and the respect, but that's not a condition of sale. Everybody has a military link somewhere.

[highlander_Daz]

The situation in Northern Ireland has nothing to do with the Tartan of the Black watch, as a British Regiment the Black Watch and most other regiments have served at some stage in Northen Ireland, regardless of rights or wrongs of the "troubles" those soldiers would perform their duty to the best of their ablity, as many many Scots are of Irish descent I know that they would have an "opinion" about the troubles, but they are professional soldiers and they would do what they were orded to do regardless of personal opinion. As would US or Canadian or ANZACS or whatever. I am a big admirer of all our Allied armed forces. I have a particular affection for Highland regiments so if im "off on one" then it simply reflect the level of esteem I hold our armed forces in.

[Sir Robert]

Thanks!

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Regarding the Black Watch tartan, some have said it is "basically" the same as the Campbell tartan, or "essentially" the same as the Campbell tartan.

Actually, the Black Watch tartan is the Campbell clan tartan. There is absolutely no difference in the sett whatsoever. Black Watch = Campbell. No difference.

In addition to being used as the Campbell clan tartan, the Black Watch is also used as a hunting tartan by Clan Grant and Clan Munro. And, because of its origins as a "government sett" it is used very often as a general use tartan by those with no clan connections.

It is not uncommon to find the same tartan shared by more than one clan, or having different names. For instance:
Campbell of Cawdor = Argyle District = MacCorquodale
Keith = Austin = Marshall
Hunter = Russel = Mitchell = Galbraith
MacIan = MacDonald of Glencoe
Morgan = Mackay Blue
MacDonald of Sleat = MacCullough

There are more, but this is what I can think of off the top of my head. What is interesting about the Black Watch, though, is not only that it is shared by three different clans (Campbell, Grant, and Munro), but that it is also a military tartan, and widely used as an all-purpose general tartan as well.

Aye,
Matt

[gmcdavid]

In addition to being used as the Campbell clan tartan, the Black Watch is also used as a hunting tartan by Clan Grant and Clan Munro.

This is very appropriate. All three clans were well represented in the early Black Watch, being politically reliable from the government viewpoint.

Glenn