Dress Sporran

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Todd asked me for my opinion on this one and I find myself agreeing with his reasoning. Especially since we know a bit of the story behind the sporran and it would appear to be a story with some historic interest/signifigance.

If the Liverpool Scottish have a museum, they'd probably love to have the sporran. Even if not, there is bound to be some museum who would value it.

Not that you can't wear it to a wedding -- it's your sporran. But just bear in mind that any time you wear or use it like that you run the risk of damaging an item that would be of historic value to people.

M

[bubba]

For those interested, http://www.liverpoolscottish.org.uk/

[Moosehead]

As an addition, if a piece of a uniform belonging to the first US soldier killed in WW1, connected to a double Medal of Honor winner was in somebody elses family, would/should/could the person in possession of said item wear it? The same situation exists here.

The question shouldn't be what can be done with said sporran, but what should be done, in light of the history connected to it.

Posted at the same time as the above.

[mrpharr]

From: Major IL Riley TD FSA Scot (retd) Hon. Secretary
Liverpool Scottish Regimental Museum

Dear Mr Craig,

Sorry for any confusion; perhaps I shouldn't send out e-mails like this one and my original at 2 o'clock in the morning! The phrase ' ..... purchasing this ....' referred to the book by Colonel McGilchrist mentioned earlier in the sentence

He rates a serious mention in the regimental history by Colonel McGilchrist (see below) and if you consider purchasing this, please let me know; we would have to consider some efficient way of getting payment into the UK as our banks charge almost as much to cash dollar cheques as their value!

I certainly wasn't trying to hustle you into selling what you rightly describe as an heirloom, and one with some history.My apologies. Captain Twentyman was, very sadly, killed at an early stage of the war in 1914 near Kemmel in Belgium (a few miles south west of Ypres, the scene of some of the bloodiest fighting of WW1). Dennis will provide you with documentation of his service, the circumstances of his death and something of his part in the Liverpool Scottish and the life of the city of Liverpool

I thought you should be aware that he rates a serious mention in the regimental history (actually well written and with a better sense of humour than one might expect from an account of a regiment's part in WW1). I was drawing your attention to the existence of the history (recently reprinted and mentioned in the signature block below my name). It might be a little presumptuous of me, I'm afraid, but I thought that you might be interested in a copy and I was just taking the opportunity to point out its existence. We have had people in the US and Canada fire off a cheque straight away and it causes huge difficulties when our bank charges us almost the value of the cheque to cash it!

This is a super artifact and looks absolutely genuine.I should mention that when I said it was referred to as a 'silver-topped' sporran they are silver plated and not solid silver (at least we have never seen a solid silver one - which would carry silver hallmarks).

Yours sincerely,

Ian Riley

[KiltedCodeWarrior]

mrpharr, been reading this post with great interest. My 2 cents are worth exactly what you pay for them, but here they are. If your grandfather was a member of the Liverpool Scottish and this were his sporran, I would whole heartedly endorse wearing it as a sign of your family, tradition, and heritage. I can think of no finer tribute. If however, your family came to own the sporran through some means other than inheritance or other transition of family ownership, then it does not represent your family and heritage and I would get a sporran that does, either new or from another family member. In that case you would need to decide what to do with this sporran. It might then be nothing other than a valuable historic artifact that you could sell or donate. The choice would be yours.

Not trying to stir the pot here, just providing my perspective. Congratulations on the impending nuptials!

[Moosehead]

Geez, stir, stir, stir...

Just a note with regards to how British Officers aquired their gear, and still do in most cases. They are required to buy them. My point? Crap, I'm not really sure.

It belongs to you, plain and simple. On the other hand, I know what I would do. The history of it's original owner is just too great to overlook, in my humble opinion.

Bloody hell, is there a dog around I can kick? Maybe I'll pull the wings off a June Bug or something. I'm just really on a roll today, aren't I.

[KiltedCodeWarrior]

Geez, stir, stir, stir...

Just a note with regards to how British Officers aquired their gear, and still do in most cases. They are required to buy them. My point? Crap, I'm not really sure.

It belongs to you, plain and simple. On the other hand, I know what I would do. The history of it's original owner is just too great to overlook, in my humble opinion.

Bloody hell, is there a dog around I can kick? Maybe I'll pull the wings off a June Bug or something. I'm just really on a roll today, aren't I.

Moosehead, thanks! You expressed the same feelings I had. Its not a simple black and white answer.

[macwilkin]

BTW, as an aside, another famous member of the Liverpool Scottish Regiment in the First World War was this gentleman:



That's Basil Rathbone, aka "Sherlock Holmes". Rathbone was an Intelligence Officer for the regiment, and was awarded the Military Cross for outstanding bravery. Reportedly he disguised himself (and I'm not making this up) as a tree to scout the German trenches and gather intelligence.

Regards,

Todd

[bubba]

All things considered it would be a lovely gesture if it could be returned to the family, but I'm not sure how easy that would be. I know my Uncle did that with a Japanese sword he got on Guadalcanal and the hunt for the proper person cost him quite a bit of money and effort. Next best might be donate it to the Regimental museum where it would be cared for and displayed. Since there's no family connection to the original owner or the Regiment I wouldn't wear it. Just my opinion mind you.

[Moosehead]

Since there's no family connection to the original owner or the Regiment I wouldn't wear it.

Actually, I think that is the major factor in wearing it or not.

It isn't my right to say what can or cannot be done in this matter. All I know is what my personal sense of honour would demand in a similar circumstance. The sporran belonged to the first casualty of this fine Regiment of the British Army in WW1. Many, especially in North America, might not understand who and what the Territorials are. In essence, they are in all respects a family. Generations of the same family serve in the same Territorial Regiments. Not necessarily a good thing, but a fact.

Moosehead, thanks! You expressed the same feelings I had. Its not a simple black and white answer.

I can only speak for myself here, I want to make this clear. To me, and maybe me alone, it is black and white. The only thought that crosses my mind is how the original owner's family would feel. Yes, the family may be hard to track down...for an individual. But easy for the Regimental Association or the regimental Museum.

In Canada, there have been several cases in recent years of collectors selling the medals of Canadian Veterans, many of them VC winners. There is no Canadian law forbidding the selling of a real VC. My understanding of US Law, is that the sale of a real MOH is illegal. We need the same type of law.

Flight Lieutenant (Captain) S.P. Relton
CAF(ret'd), RAF (ret'd)
Sinai 86, Kuwait/Iraq 90-91, Former Yugoslavia 94 and 96(UNPROFOR & SFOR)