Irish kilt pics, 1905

[michael steinrok]

That presents a very interesting question, then: was the British Army aware of the originator of their particular shade of saffron was the leader of the Easter Rebellion?

The Irish Regiments had adopted some Irish Nationalist symbols, such as a the Shamrock and Harp, with a crown added, of course, to make it "politically correct", for lack of a better term -- although Lord Kitchner refused to allow the 16th (Irish) Division a Green "Harp Flag" during their service in WWI because of its Nationalist associations. Ironically, John Redmond's moderate Volunteer forces used the Green Harp flag, and it was the association with the Redmondites that caused it to fall out of favour with the more radical Irish Republicans, who later adopted the Tricolour.

Interesting to think about, though...

T.

After readig the letter to Pearse I sure am glad he picked the kilt. In regards to the B.A. picking that particular color does make it interesting doesn't it?

Thanks for the link on the letter. I added it to my favourites

[Alan H]

This is a GREAT set of posts and a real education. Thank you, gentlemen.

I can only contribute this link from someone who actually DID some dyeing with a plant generally available to the Irish and Scottish weavers in the 1400's - 1600's and 1700's....namely, broom.

http://www.reconstructinghistory.com...affrondye.html

Notice that she says that the mordanted wool becomes a "dark yellow" when dyed with extract of the broom plant.

Also, this: http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/irish/saffron.html

From which I draw your attention to this text at the bottom:

"The colour of modern Irish pipe regiments who sport "saffron kilts" is not the colour that saffron produces. "

By 1900 saffron would have been much more generally available than it would have been three hundred years earlier, but still blisteringly expensive. the proprietor of Saint Edna's school surely could not afford the amount of saffron needed to dye all his schoolboys kilts "saffron". In other words, the irish "saffron" kilt as developed by Pease and others is dyed with something almost certainly, totally unrelated to saffron, and the word is only a term of convenience. It was probably used as a link to Irish History, in which the leinte was worn a bright yellow, and described as "saffron".

None of this has anything to do with the political history of the saffron kilt, but I thought you might find it of interest.

Also, a general reference: http://www.yorkcitylevy.com/modules....article&sid=39

[switchblade5984]

Oh I wouldn't say it was a defeat. Besides I may finally knuckle under and buy one of the bloody things I appreciate your effort.Thanks again.

hahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaa

finally!

THANK YOU MOOSEHEAD!

[An t-Ileach]

I have some brass buttons of the Leinster Regiment. Did the Connaught Rangers have a pipe band before their disbandment in India?

There's another possible angle to some of this:

Much of Irish nationalism draws its culture from the south east as it does its language - the Munster dialect is in effect the standard of Irish. Whereas Donegal and much of Ulster (especially Antrim) speaks more or less the same dialect of Gaelic as the southern Hebrides and Argyll.

Certain of the Islands clans (especially Clan Donald) straddle the North Passage, and it's often easier to get to Northern Ireland than it is to the bigger population centres of Scotland (such as Glasgow, Oban, or Fort William). There's a shared culture here, so could not there have been (say, on the Aran Islands) a Scottish influence (this doesn't have anything to do with plantations, Orangemen, or Ulster Scots/Scots Irish) in the wearing of the kilt and the playing of the pipes?

[Moosehead]

Alan,

those web links helped me a great deal when I first started researching this. Just as the "saffron" leine was worn in both Ireland and Scotland, so too was the colour almost universally described as being a bright or mustardy yellow.

The dye Pearse used is something called 'cottle", although I haven't a clue what it is other than a plant.

There's a shared culture here, so could not there have been (say, on the Aran Islands) a Scottish influence (this doesn't have anything to do with plantations, Orangemen, or Ulster Scots/Scots Irish) in the wearing of the kilt and the playing of the pipes?

Certainly possible. Just remember, the pipes didn't come to Ireland through Scotland, but the other way around.

[Pleater]

Many years ago I got flack from ex army for wearing my beret pulled to the left - which is regarded as Irish.

Maybe the reversed pleats are on the same plan - to be the reverse of the British.

[prattw]

What's used as a dyestuff is not the windsuckingly expensive spice. The dye is the dried flowers from which the saffron has already been removed. It's available in ethnic groceries locally, about $1.50 or $2.00 for enough to dye a fairly full shirt. I suspect that would make enough to dye 8 yards of wool between $10 and $20.

I have a shirt actually dyed with real saffron flowers in my closet. It's a bright, not unattractive yellow, I'd have called it "canary yellow", but mustard would be a reasonable match. The problem with saffron as a dye is it's not very fast. My shirt has been washed three or four times, now, and is noticeably paler than a couple of small items that haven't been washed. Of course, to be "in period", I really shouldn't be washing it every time it gets sweaty.

Will Pratt

[Moosehead]

which is regarded as Irish

Not entirely true. Only the London Irish wear the caubeen pulled to the left. All others, to the right.

Maybe the reversed pleats are on the same plan - to be the reverse of the British.

Unless there was simply no "standard" at the time. Any of you historians (Todd, Matt), know whether in Scotland the pleat direction was standardized at the time, around 1900? Or was it simply at the makers' discretion?

[macwilkin]

I have some brass buttons of the Leinster Regiment. Did the Connaught Rangers have a pipe band before their disbandment in India?

I could not find any reference to "The Devil's Own" having a pipe band, either in Harris or in a history of the Connaughts I have in my library.

As an aside, the Connaughts, as well as a number of other Irish regiments, had a particular tradition associated with a popular marching song, "Killaloe":

http://www.iol.ie/~ipba/killaloe.html

I have heard the "Connaught Yell" before on recordings -- basically a loud "Yo", similar to what the Jocks do in "The Black Bear".

You can hear "Killaloe" and the "Connaught Yell" here:

http://www.royalirishrangers.co.uk/

Cheers,

Todd

[macwilkin]

I had a look tonight in two books in my library about the Irish Republic's Army (not the IRA), and found pipers mentioned a couple of times:

In Donal MacCarron's "Step Together: Ireland's Emergency Army 1939-1946", It is noted that each Infantry Battalion had its own pipe band, but no real reference to uniforms. McCarron's other work, "The Irish Defence Forces since 1922", does have a picture of an Irish Army band in 1946 wearing "saffron" kilts and cloaks. Today, the Irish Air Corps Pipe Band wears the "saffron" kilt:



In this photo, taken on O'Connell Street in Dublin on Easter Monday, you will see some of the Irish pipers wearing a bonnet with saffron trim; MacCarron refers to this piece of headgear in his books as a "Glengarry", which is peculiar to the Irish forces. It was worn during WWII (The Emergency, as it was known in the Free State) by pipers and by Cavalry units in armored cars and on motorcycles.

Cheers,

Todd