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[macwilkin]

While I (as a tartan kilt maker) would LOVE for the kilt to be most widely known for it's clan affiliations and Scottish Heritage, if you want the kilt to be "widely accepted", then it has to go BEYOND that. It has to appeal to people OTHER than just those of us with celtic blood.

With all due respect, Rocky: why do you have to go "beyond it", though? Why must history and tradition be ignored and sacrificed for something to be "accepted"?

My point was, that my students at our community college accept the kilt as a heritage symbol and it's history. After talking to some, they express interest in their own heritage. A few have even asked me about "non-Scottish" tartans if they have no Scottish blood. The very fact that tartans are being designed for Italians, Swiss, Norwegians, Germans, Chinese give the tartan kilt that appeal to others that you mentioned. It's been my experience that students will love history if you make it interesting and something they can relate to; I'm all for telling them about the modern trend in kilts, but they could have also dropped a name like Ewan MacGregor, showed a picture of him traditionally decked out, and talked about his kilt symbolizing his family. That would have worked.

I don't want the kilt to be "widely accepted" just for for the sake of being accepted. The kilt isn't for everyone, and that's all right. In my experience, most folks I talk to accept the kilt once I explain what I mentioned above.

To me, a discussion of kilts without some discussion of its roots is wasted. But, I'm a history teacher, and I hate to see history ignored. You have to know where you came from to get where you're going.

Please don't get me wrong, though: I'm happy that you are getting some exposure, though. That's good.

Regards,

Todd

[auld argonian]

To take off on a tangent from Todd's comments about tartans other than Scots, you can't blame folks for wanting a distinctive fabric pattern that they can identify with...even before I became interested in the kilts I was looking into weaving...just curious and looking for a small loom to play around with...looking at it as a sort of meditation/zen exercise. The weaving of North American Indigenous People like the Navajo is, when you really get into it, fascinating. I did find myself looking at Kente cloth as well and learning about the techniques involved in its production...and as I've encountered some of my African American neighbors and gotten their reaction to the kilt, I've always asked if they have considered wearing traditional African fabrics as I was wearing fabric associated with my ancestry. Frankly, I'd love to see someone do a kilt form with some of that darn neat Kente cloth...everyone should have a kilt and if they can be made from tartan and solid fabrics, how about Kente? I can just picture a huge drum fest with the African contingent and the Euro contingent in their respective kilts wailing away on the skins...toss in a little bit of the pipes and some of that West African electric guitar stuff and you've really got a serious jam....

Best

AA

[Caradoc]

I can just picture a huge drum fest with the African contingent and the Euro contingent in their respective kilts wailing away on the skins...toss in a little bit of the pipes and some of that West African electric guitar stuff and you've really got a serious jam....

Best

AA

Try a listen to Blair Douglas' "Nelson Mandela's Welcome to the City of Glasgow."

It's got pretty much everything you mention above.

[macwilkin]

Try a listen to Blair Douglas' "Nelson Mandela's Welcome to the City of Glasgow."

It's got pretty much everything you mention above.

Or:

www.macumba.com

A great band that plays a mix of Brazilian and Scottish music!

Cheers,

Todd

[Kilted Taper]

Great...so what should we expect now Rocky.....4 - 5 month wait on kilts?? Just playing with ya...

That's awsome. I think any exposure is good exposure. The more it's seen the more it MAY become accepted.

[Retro Red]

I can just picture a huge drum fest with the African contingent and the Euro contingent in their respective kilts wailing away on the skins...toss in a little bit of the pipes and some of that West African electric guitar stuff and you've really got a serious jam....

...by the Afro Celtic Sound System! As the band's name implies, this is an incredible amalgam of Celtic & African musicians, instrumentation & musical styles. Highly recommended!

.

[RockyR]

With all due respect, Rocky: why do you have to go "beyond it", though? Why must history and tradition be ignored and sacrificed for something to be "accepted"?

My point was, that my students at our community college accept the kilt as a heritage symbol and it's history. After talking to some, they express interest in their own heritage. A few have even asked me about "non-Scottish" tartans if they have no Scottish blood. The very fact that tartans are being designed for Italians, Swiss, Norwegians, Germans, Chinese give the tartan kilt that appeal to others that you mentioned. It's been my experience that students will love history if you make it interesting and something they can relate to; I'm all for telling them about the modern trend in kilts, but they could have also dropped a name like Ewan MacGregor, showed a picture of him traditionally decked out, and talked about his kilt symbolizing his family. That would have worked.

I don't want the kilt to be "widely accepted" just for for the sake of being accepted. The kilt isn't for everyone, and that's all right. In my experience, most folks I talk to accept the kilt once I explain what I mentioned above.

To me, a discussion of kilts without some discussion of its roots is wasted. But, I'm a history teacher, and I hate to see history ignored. You have to know where you came from to get where you're going.

Please don't get me wrong, though: I'm happy that you are getting some exposure, though. That's good.

Regards,

Todd

I understand... and agree. After all, I make money from TARTAN kilts. I personally like them better and would like to see the "historical aspect" of them brought to the forefront, but that won't necesisarily happen. AND, even if it IS a contemporary kilt that catches on first, people will STILL be showing interest in KILTS.

There's a history with kilts (contemporary or traditional) that few garments have. Where did the t shirt start? OFF THE TOP OF YOUR HEAD (don't do google searches and stuff), do you know the history of the tshirt or are there any forums (even 1 forum) dedicated to tshirts and promoting them as the best option to wear on your chest? How about shorts? What about bowties?

The mere fact that ANY type of kilt is coming to the forefront is a good sign for people who want kilts to be daily wear. If you want kilts to remain for "special occasions only" or if you want to be the only person in a kilt in your area or if you are a "traditionalist" about kilts, this could easily be viewed as a bad thing.

To address the question directly... "why do we have to go beyond that"?

1. Anything that remains stagnant for too long dies. The way to revive interest in something is to "re-invent" it. drawing a parallel... look at musical groups. The only ones that "survive" a LONG time (decades, not years) are the ones that re-invent themselves once in a while. You may not LIKE the way something has been "reinvented", but people WILL talk about it, giving it attention, thus keeping it alive... both the former incarnation and the "reinvented" one.

2. As I said... I prefer tartans myself, but it is GOING to happen that people want solids. It's sort of a moot question... we ARE ALREADY beyond that point. As long as the kilt becomes popular and people TALK about the differences between contemporary and traditional kilts, the history WILL survive. It's when people stop giving a crap that the history dies.

3. People may be AFRAID of the history aspect... the "tartan police" might get them. This isn't (IMHO) a good excuse for not buying a tartan kilt, but it IS a concern of people who don't know any better. Wearing a solid contemporary is getting their feet wet and if they like it, they go further and eventually buy a tartan kilt and learn a little bit about the history while they're at it.

4. I agree that other "nationalities" are getting into it. I have a German National kilt and LOVE it. the problem is... we're talking about KIDS. Do they have $500 + to drop on their first kilt? No. Until "alternative nationality" tartans are woven in an inexpensive fabric, they won't be "affordable to the masses".

5. We're talking about kids who don't NESCISARILY want to learn / care about the history of what they're wearing. How many kids know the history of the jeans they have on? It would be GREAT if they knew the history of the kilt and tartans when they put their first one on, but that probably won't happen. You have to take the good with the bad. Some (even most) may just get a kilt to "be cool", but there will be others who get a little history lesson at the same time... I am guessing MANY more kilt history lessons than JEANS history lessons.

To everyone reading this... Todd and I already PM'd each other and aren't fighting... just expressing 2 different points of view, respectfully.

[macwilkin]

Rocky,

You make some very valid points in your reply.

I'm probably not the best person in the world to answer your question regarding the history of other garments, since that is sort of my "bread and butter"; I worked with the history of clothing, especially military uniforms, as a ranger. Yes, most folks don't know it off the top of their head, but, in my experience, they love to learn about it. Case in point: few people today realize that "off-the-rack" civilian clothing comes from the US Civil War and the Army's attempts to standardize uniform sizes, as they had to outfit and equip millions of men for service. The clothiers took this idea and applied to civilian fashions as a way to make clothing more accessible and affordable. I discuss this every semester in my American history class, and students in general, like those little details. I also discuss the history of jeans, btw.

On that note, there is actually a cloth known as "jeans-wool", which is a wool/cotton combo -- it was also known as "slave cloth", as it was traditionally what slave garments were made out of before the Civil War. Some Missouri Confederate units also wore "jeans-wool" uniforms as well as a "cost-cutter".

See, I told you I was the wrong one to discuss this.

Remember, they may not want to learn, but believe me, they like to learn, especially when it is approached in a way that they can relate to. I see this every day in my classes; the most ardent "history-haters" love history when it is taught like a well-told story. Look how many "mature folks" love history after they get out of high school!

4. I agree that other "nationalities" are getting into it. I have a German National kilt and LOVE it. the problem is... we're talking about KIDS. Do they have $500 + to drop on their first kilt? No. Until "alternative nationality" tartans are woven in an inexpensive fabric, they won't be "affordable to the masses".

I agree 100%. I think the mills that make the P/V material are missing the mark by not making some of the national/state/district tartans.

If you want kilts to remain for "special occasions only" or if you want to be the only person in a kilt in your area or if you are a "traditionalist" about kilts, this could easily be viewed as a bad thing.

I am one of those persons; kilts are special to me for their symbolism, and I am not a full-time kilt wearer for that reason. I am also a traditionalist. I don't care if others disagree with me, or do their own thing, all I want is mutual respect for those of us who are more traditional in our mindset.

I'm probably taking this waaay too off-topic here, so I'll end the debate, if Rocky's cool with that. We're really not too far off on our opinions, when you look at it. I just hate to see someone lose out on a learning experience, no matter how small.

Cheers,

Todd

[RockyR]

I'm probably taking this waaay too off-topic here, so I'll end the debate, if Rocky's cool with that. We're really not too far off on our opinions, when you look at it.

Since I started the original post, I think we can have a LITTLE latitude. I agree that the debate is pretty much done though. We DO have a pretty similar view.

Rocky,

You make some very valid points in your reply.

I'm probably not the best person in the world to answer your question regarding the history of other garments, since that is sort of my "bread and butter"; I worked with the history of clothing, especially military uniforms, as a ranger. Yes, most folks don't know it off the top of their head, but, in my experience, they love to learn about it. Case in point: few people today realize that "off-the-rack" civilian clothing comes from the US Civil War and the Army's attempts to standardize uniform sizes, as they had to outfit and equip millions of men for service. The clothiers took this idea and applied to civilian fashions as a way to make clothing more accessible and affordable. I discuss this every semester in my American history class, and students in general, like those little details. I also discuss the history of jeans, btw.

On that note, there is actually a cloth known as "jeans-wool", which is a wool/cotton combo -- it was also known as "slave cloth", as it was traditionally what slave garments were made out of before the Civil War. Some Missouri Confederate units also wore "jeans-wool" uniforms as well as a "cost-cutter".

See, I told you I was the wrong one to discuss this.

Remember, they may not want to learn, but believe me, they like to learn, especially when it is approached in a way that they can relate to. I see this every day in my classes; the most ardent "history-haters" love history when it is taught like a well-told story. Look how many "mature folks" love history after they get out of high school!

I agree 100%. I think the mills that make the P/V material are missing the mark by not making some of the national/state/district tartans.

You know WAY too much about that stuff. HAHAHAHAA My point was that the "average Joe" doesn't know these things. If I had a history teacher like you in HS, I might have been more interested! Good on you for teaching kids "FUN history" and not just the texbook stuff. It's when you put history in context and force people to take a step back and THINK about it and give them little "everyday tidbits" that it becomes cool... when you're just reading pages and memorizing dates, it is dull.

I am one of those persons; kilts are special to me for their symbolism, and I am not a full-time kilt wearer for that reason. I am also a traditionalist. I don't care if others disagree with me, or do their own thing, all I want is mutual respect for those of us who are more traditional in our mindset.

That's why you don't like the Contemporary stuff, and that's fine too! You have an opinion and you're welcome to it!

I just hate to see someone lose out on a learning experience, no matter how small.

They don't HAVE to! Can you imagine what you'll do the first time a student comes to class in a Freedom Kilt or a UK? Won't it be a great "learning experience" for the whole class (not JUST the guy in the kilt) as you explore the history of the tartan kilt and contemporary kilts in class? What if a kid comes to class in a Blackwatch kilt he bought for $50 on ebay... won't you have the same discussion about tartans and kilts and their place in history?

Whether it's Tartan or Contemporary, discussion on kilts will almost inevitably be linked to history.

[possingk]

I am one of the guys that doesn't own, any 'clan' tartans since I don't belong to one. But I have a Irish national (for my pipe band), a scottish national, an Ireland's national, and a warrior kilt. When I wear them out and people are interested, they not only know what the tartan is when I am done, but I also learn from them what thier background is and what they think of me wearing the kilt. It doesn't happen every time I am out (anymore), but when it does I feel that we both learn something. Even if all they learn is that I find them comfortable, maybe it will get them to think about a kilt. I think the one that I explain the most is probably the Warrior tartan, because 1. it is purple, and 2. it doesn't really have an affiliation, so I can explain, that tartans are made for people who 'don't have one'. I don't normally get into a tartan police discussion simply because I haven't decided how I feel about that whole thing yet. As long as I can avoid getting a 'clan kilt' I will. That is just me though. I respect all points of view, Todd, I give you credit for believing what you do, and showing all the points that you bring to the table, I also like to hear about other people that bought a kilt because they liked it, got a deal on it, and then learned about the history. That is what makes this board great. I really hope that the MTV.Com article catches on and gets people at least thinking about it. In the mean time I will keep spreading the kilted word one business card at a time.