the word "claymore"

[An t-Ileach]

Using the scheme "lie" pronounced as in 'falsehood', claidheamh da laimh would be 'clieyev da lie' (some people pronounce it more like 'clieya' with a nasal sound at the end); and claidheamh mor would be 'clieyev moor' (or 'clieya moor').

I've had a thought for some time that maybe there's a much older usage hidden here. Could the 'claymore' be 'mor' with reference to a smaller sword - such as the Roman gladius which acquired widespread use at the end of the Roman Occupation and its descendants carried on a while in Britain. So, could the dirk (biodag) be the 'small sword', as it is traditionally worn in the same way as the gladius - and so the claymore would thus be bigger than it? And so, the two-handed sword would be a mediaeval oddity and not the great sword.

[Woodsheal]

I've had a thought for some time that maybe there's a much older usage hidden here. Could the 'claymore' be 'mor' with reference to a smaller sword - such as the Roman gladius which acquired widespread use at the end of the Roman Occupation and its descendants carried on a while in Britain. So, could the dirk (biodag) be the 'small sword', as it is traditionally worn in the same way as the gladius - and so the claymore would thus be bigger than it? And so, the two-handed sword would be a mediaeval oddity and not the great sword.

I don't think a dirk would ever have been considered a "sword." The Scottish dirk as we know it evolved from the common European ballock-dagger between ca. 1590 and ca. 1650, and initially had a blade length only in the 10-12 inch range. Such a knife is hardly a "sword." Longer bladed dirks made from cut-down sword blades was a later development.

Finally, the two-handed great sword was always a "specialty" sword, being wielded by big strong guys who could handle them, usually for the purpose of breaking opposing pike staffs....

[AllenJ]

I have only the smallest understanding of the Gaelic language but I have heard it pronounced more like 'clay-eww moor' and 'clay-eww da liv' but it certinaly could be an accent thing, inccorect source or fuzzy memory.

Woodsheal is right that the dirk (biodag) didn't exist anywhere near the Roman time period and thus wouldn't have likley pick up any real relation.

However, there really isn't any clear, evidence that I am aware of that documents the CDL's (claidheamh da laimh) being used for the purpose of breaking pikes.

With proper instruction (and more importantly, an accurate replica), Scottish two-handers are not as hard as most people think to weild. Remember that these weapons were not much more than 5-6 lbs. And anyone who has handled antique weapons can testify that they often feel much, much lighter than their actual weight, due to their expertice at weight displacement. Im not a 'big strong guy' and have no problem using one when using historically accurate techniques (or near enough as we can figure).

As a side note:
I spend alot of time researching and training in historic European Martial arts. Which means I study lots of different types of swordplay from alot of different cultures. Most of the historic manuals show certain techniques for defeating someone with a pike or spear if you have a longsword. None that I have seen ever teach the cutting off of the pike head. Even if you do, a staff with a probable sharp end is still a very formidable weapon. Usually what is best is to displace the thrust to the side and rush in- usually seizing the haft of the weapon as you rush in. Many times this is also done in the half-sword which is were you grip the blade portion of your sword to gain more speed and leverage. See several methods on this here: http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Gladi...ladiatoria.htm

[Graham]

Very interesting thread, especially since I recently bought a (cheap, Indian made) copy of a Claymore.
Tho' this sword is poorly balanced and not the correct weight, it still gives an idea of how hard these swords would be to swing.

I've seen a copy of Wallaces' sword in Stirling, it's a heck of a big sword pointing to the great stature of the man himself.
I'm on the lookout for a basket hilted broadsword (copy) at present.

[AllenJ]

The Wallace Sword is a whole other can of worms. Basically, many to most people in the know, seriously doubt that this sword was ever used by Wallace. Main reasons being that there is no other sword on record ever resembling anything close to that thing at that point in time. It is, however, very similar to some 16th century designs. It really isnt even clasified as a 'claymore' (or CDL) as it dosent fit the defenition or the time period of when the CDL's were in use. They were a late 15th? -early 17th century weapon. Way past Wallaces time. I dont know of the exact weight of it but it looks to be much heavier than the 5-7 lbs average for other swords of it's type.

My personal, un-documented opinion is that someone somewhere in the 16th century decided to make the "Official Commemorative William Wallace Sword". Over time it would just be called "The William Wallace Sword" and possibly shortened to "the Wallace Sword" by the Victorian time period when all the rage was all things Scottish, it's not hard to believe that it could easily have been mistaken as 'the sword actually used by William Wallace'. But I cant back that up

Here is an article along similar lines: http://swordforum.com/fall99/sword-o...m-wallace.html

EDIT:
Graham- I have lots of info and links to good baskethilts at most price ranges. Are you looking for a specific hilt style? time period? Are you going to be using it or just to wear to Games? etc.

[Graham]

Graham- I have lots of info and links to good baskethilts at most price ranges. Are you looking for a specific hilt style? time period? Are you going to be using it or just to wear to Games? etc.

I was looking for something to be used for ceremonial occasions eg. presentation/piping of the haggis, and then to hang on the wall next to the el-cheapo claymore.

There are some nice ones here, I would need to buy within Australia to avoid the hassles of bringing one into the country.

I suspected there may be some doubt about the Wallace sword, the one in Stirling didn't look at all like Mel Gibson's sword

[AllenJ]

-David- heh, yeah I suppose it is me (From SFI) Grandfather Mnt. was great. Good weather and good people. I was only up there on Sat. and wished I had more time. Part of the drawback to working your clan's booth is that you don't get enough time to walk around and see everything.

Alan H- thats Scottish Court Sword is pretty much a generic European smallsword. There isn't anything particularly "Scottish" about it. It could just as easily be labled a French or English smallsword and it would not be out of place.

Smallswords are decendents of the rapier. Obviously much smaller and much lighter. They had smaller hilts and trangular cross section blades. They were 99.99% of the time used as thrust only weapons. They were duelling weapons and not intended for battlefield use. (though you will see lots of paintings of Generals and important people that didnt actually fight, wearing them on the field.) This began the downward spiral of effective sword use when we start seeing alot of smallsword schools oppening up for the upper classes. It began to become sportified and more rules and regulations were added to keep the weathy people safe. It continued to become more of a sporting activity and less of a martial art until it degenerated into what we see today as modern sport fencing. Though if you look at true smallsword technique before it became sportified, you will see that it is a very lethal and very effective method/tool for dueling.
Look here for more antique smallswords: http://www.myarmoury.com/albums/thumbnails.php?album=55

If you want to see more on how the smallsword was used, look at these period masters:
Monsieur L'Abbat, 1734, "The Art of Fencing, or, the Use of the Small Sword"

"New Method of Fencing", c.1708, by Sir William Hope

Capt. John Godfrey, 1747, "A Treatise Upon the Useful Science of Defence, Connecting the Small and Back-Sword..."

Domenico Angelo's 'l'Ecole d'Armes' of 1763

one of the easier ones to get your hands on is this: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/185...806555?ie=UTF8


Graham- If you are just looking something to hang up or do a presentation with then those are fine. Obviously you can get better looking and more accurate ones, but that will up the price quite a bit. Oh, yeah, that didnt look like Mel Gibson's sword at all. For that matter I dont think ANYONE has seen a sword that looks like Mel's. Could it be that he made it up and didnt base it on historical examples?!?!?! What a shock! ;)

[An t-Ileach]

I have only the smallest understanding of the Gaelic language but I have heard it pronounced more like 'clay-eww moor' and 'clay-eww da liv' but it certinaly could be an accent thing, inccorect source or fuzzy memory...

It's probably dialect variation; there's some distinct variations between Argyll and the southern islands, the northern islands, and the mainland up to Inverness.

Thanks for clearing up that thing about the dirk.

[AllenJ]

oh yeah, just for the record...
the Gaelic for a baskethilted backsword (a single edged broadsword) is 'claidheamh cuil'. The name was different from that of the two edged variety.

[David White]

Interesting thread, thanks Alan. Is that you AlanJ? How was Grandfather Mt. games?