A question on ethics...

**freddie** · 28th July 06, 02:23 PM

During the World Cup England fans were wearing head dress with the word 'Carlesburg' emblazoned on them - A Danish brewery!!!!! :confused:

**Frank McGrath** · 28th July 06, 07:04 PM

My wife and I have been working with our families geneology for the past 20 years. She has definite roots in Germany and Austria. My roots are in Washington DC. and Carroll County, Md. 5 generations on both sides. My two brothers have not only been to Ireland, but every Irish bar in DC and Maryland. I am still holding out for a Scottish ancestor. I wear a Stewart Hunting Kilt. I had done some research that led me to the Stewart Clan, so I bought the Stewart. More research led me to MacRae, so I will probably buy a MacRae kilt. I tend to show great respect for other's culture. When we go a German Festival, I wear my Tyrolean Vest and my Eidelweiss tie. When we go to Gaelic events, I wear the tartan. I have learned much about the customs from both areas when clothed for the occasion. In Germany and Austria, We were both surprised at the number of men and women dressed in "trachten" to go to their jobs. Not only in restaurants and stores, but office jobs. I could only imagine that Scotland would be like that, too. We will see when we go. BUT.....this wekiend I will cross the two cultures. I will be kilted at the German festival at the Timonium Fairgrounds on saturday. Good beer is good beer, whether from Germany or Scotland. But I'm still holding out for Scottish forebears. Heritage is a good thing. Live it and enjoy it.

**Frank McGrath** · 29th July 06, 08:18 PM

Just got back from the German Festival. I went Kilted. A lot of comments, all positive. Saw a guy in a Utilikilt. Met the President of the local St. Andrews Soc. Talked to more people than I ever had before at a festival.. I was respectful to every one I met and they were respectful to me. Ethics comes down to the Golden Rule. Just think of how you want your culture treated. Beer and wurst, Haggis and malt. Just enjoy, Don't annoy.

**Pleater** · 30th July 06, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by mrpharr

At the pub there was an Africa American guy, that I see out at the soccer pitch, with a kilt on. My first thought was "what is that guy doing with a kilt on?" But the more I thought about it the more ashamed I was for even thinking that for a breif time. Why could he not wear one? He was celebrating the day the way he wanted too and who knows what his blood line is.

There was a TV program here in the UK a little while ago looking at the genetic origins of various people, and one man was really perplexed to find that his male line - the Y chromosome, was not from Africa, but much further North and East.

There is amazingly little diversity in Humans - it is thought that at some time in prehistory the population crashed to just a few thousand, and it is more likely than not that any two persons, even if living on opposite sides of the globe, would share quite a large percentage of the 'what makes a Human' DNA.

However - there's is really no reason to supose that a person of whatever shade or style would not have an ancestor who happened to be a Scottish, perhaps an engineer or surveyor, or missionary - as well educated people the Scots were recruited for all sorts of expeditions to every part of the planet.

Human genetics is sometimes a bit of a 'hot potato' because people might have a firm idea of their origins and really really not want to be told that they are just old one of us, one of the crowd, plain 'ol same 'ol Human.

**freddie** · 1st August 06, 11:31 AM

For a couple of centuries after the 'union of crowns' in 1603 many young Scotsmen (Covenanters, Jacobites etc.) were transplanted to His Majestys plantations for seven years as punishment for their 'crimes'. Because of their lowly status the only women available to them were negro slaves whom they married and gave their Scottish names. Most of them would probably have made a life for themselves in America or the West Indies and as future generations married black women also eventually all their descendants were black, and this is why I believe so many black people have Scottish surnames (check it out). One theory is that the plantation owners gave their name to the slaves, but I just can't see that as they would have thought themselves as being above them, and giving them their name would have been unthinkable. No I think my theory is right. Now whether any of these black people have traced their ancestry back to a Scotsman is debateable, but certainly bearing the surname entitles them to wear the kilt in that tartan, and good luck to them !

**ScotsArmiger** · 21st August 06, 05:52 AM

I've read over some of the posts and the majority are spot on. I am a Scot (born and raised) hence a Scot and a tartan down all lines of my family. Even then I would not dream of wearing anything other than my paternal family name, except if I was ever required to wear my mother's tartan.

If I came across someone wearing my tartan who was not of my name, kin and blood, I would certainly wonder why? If he was disgracing my nation's flag and admitted to being of English decent... Ahem... Aye right son, come ahead ya sassenach...

There are other possibilities outside of family and district tartans. Consider that there are commemorative tartans eg. a Scotland 2000 Commemorative Tartan - I wouldn't wear it myself but then it is probably intended for Scots whose families have never had a tartan and for foreigners who are not Scots at all. There are also several universal tartan's such as Scottish America or even the American Bicentennial Commemorative Tartan.

There's tartans that cover almost everything and these days even the screwball Da Vinci Code Tartan which should appeal to conspiracy nuts - I personally consider that one ridiculous, since it stinks of Hollywood commercialisation.

People do strange things in Tartan though, my cousin has a tartan of his own but prefered to wear the Glasgow Rangers Football Club tartan at his wedding.

Unless you can find an ancestor in your pile who was identifable as a Scot! I would urge you instead to wear a Commemorative or Universal tartan only.

**Moose McLennan** · 21st August 06, 06:38 AM

Originally Posted by ScotsArmiger

... hence a Scot and a tartan down all lines of my family. Even then I would not dream of wearing anything other than my paternal family name, except if I was ever required to wear my mother's tartan....

In an ideal world, this would be the case. I agree with James and others of a traditional bent that its usage as an identifier can add to the interest of tartan.

For years I held off getting a kilt. An order for a kilt in my 'paternal family name' tartan would just have been too expensive (my 'mother's tartan' is often found in cheapo kilts but would not be my choice colourwise).

Eventually, my rationale in buying a used kilt was: If it fits and has a similar colour-scheme, just get one. I ended up with an ex-MOD kilt far better than anything I would ever have dared to buy new, and much better suited to what I wear it for. A kilt in my 'own' tartan will come soon enough I'm sure.

To anyone in a similar situation, the biggest mistake you can make getting a kilt is, well, not getting one at all.

M.

**Riverkilt** · 21st August 06, 07:59 AM

Sorry boys,

That's just a little too "rule bound" for this free spirit. My mother, though very near death now, is the suviving elder of a major branch of my family tree. Her ancestors have a proud heritage and record of service. I am quite honored to wear the tartans of my mother's clans.

In fact, have a hand sewn 16 oz strome from Lochcarron being sewn up by Kathy Lare in the Scott tartan. Should the kilt arrive prior to mother's passing I shall wear it proudly at her services.

Perhaps its because I live among the Navajo, also a people of clans, only matriarchal in their lineage.

To treat another human as "less than" solely because of their sex, or because they are the ancestor of a female, just stands in the way of reason to me.

And, as others have pointed out, the farther back I go into my family tree, the more Scots I discover. Matters not to me whether the genes came to me via the sperm or the egg. They are MY genes now and when I passed them on to my daughter they came from her PATERNAL side.

A woman gives her ancestral genes to her son and the "rule bound" discount them because they are maternal, then when that son passes them on, honor them because they are paternal. Give me a break here folks. Free yourselves from more than bifurcated tyrany.

For me, I plan to continue to honor ALL my ancestral lines.

Ron