No more Kilts for me

[davedove]

I think the key thing here is that Raphael chose what he wanted to do... not wear a kilt to work. HE made the decision.

It wasn't made FOR him. That makes all the difference in the world.

And that, I feel, is the whole point about kilted freedom - that the individual makes the choice and not someone else.

If the fashion situation were reversed, where kilts were the predominant male garment, I wonder how many of us would be pushing to end the "kilted tyranny".

[Colin]

BUT, the fact remains that whether or not you are part of the "cause" you have still benefitted from the efforts of those who have been and continue to be a part of it. Because of the actions, tenacity, and raw intestinal fortitude of those who have gone before us the number of kiltmakers is growing, prices are coming down, more and more men have the option of wearing kilts to work and even more men are finding it easier to venture out in public in a kilt.

I have to disagree Chris. I wear my kilts because my family has a lot of ties to Scotland. As Todd pointed out, those of us that wear kilts for heritage and family reasons have always been free to wear a kilt when and where we like. We haven't had to "venture out" in public, we just went. No one had to fight for me to wear a kilt to work (I just wore it if I felt like it), and if someone in the public makes a comment about my kilts.....c'est la vie! To each their own.

Yes the list of kiltmakers has grown, but that is due to a bigger market. This has been accomplished by a bigger product offering. Utilikilts didn't come about because of pressure from full time kiltwearers. Instead fulltime kiltweares have come about with the introduction of these new companies and lower prices. I have always been able to get a kilt if I wanted to.

Using your own arguement though, you could say that full time kiltwearers really benefited from those people that they love to call "Weekend Wallaces" (man, that is a goofy term). After all, it was those people that wore kilts, for heritage reasons, to weddings, funerals, and Burns nights that kept the kilt alive in the new world for almost 200 years. Had that not happened the kilt would be part of a history book and none of us would be wearing them now.

One point I think that you missed though Chris, is that it really seems that people in North America especially have tried to search out some form of heritage in the hopes of feeling like part of a bigger picture. There was a time where being "American" was ok for people. Now with African-American, Asian-American, Native-American, etc,etc titles, people of European heritage were looking for their -American. Discovery of their Scottish, Welsh, Irish, etc heritage gives them something to look in to and research. Kilts being a part of that connection, dictated that demand would go up.



We all play a role.

[Colin]

Anyway, today at the office some things happened and I was quite upset and thought the world was ending and then I logged on here and saw all these guys saying, "Yes, you're right, it was silly to think that kilts should ever be worn to work! What were we thinking? Let's forget that whole thing, they really don't belong in a serious business setting after all!" Well....that was how I read it at least.
Phil

That was never actually the message of the thread. Raphael said he was chosing not to wear his kilts to work, as they weren't working for him. A few people came out saying that he should wear them to work anyway, even if he didn't really feel like it.The rest of us simply offered support by saying that we agreed that he should chose when and where to wear his kilts. Kilts should not be dictated to us like everything else. If I am hurting someone's cause because, as a kilt wearer, I prefer to wear shorts to garden, swim, and work out than.............get over it, I am not losing any sleep over it.

No one was saying

" Yes, you're right, it was silly to think that kilts should ever be worn to work! What were we thinking? Let's forget that whole thing, they really don't belong in a serious business setting after all!"

They were saying "Good for you Raphael for making an independent choice on what works for you".

[Raphael]

I have a closet full of clothes and my kilts will never get the exclusive. It depends on where I go, I will pick from a variety of bottoms. I am not going have one option in life. I need varieties in life. It is my right to exercise what I want to wear.

I feel like this forum is constantly giving people guilty feelings for simply wearing a pair of shorts or pants. Xmarks is not about advocating kilts as the only option, but rather as another option. I also have met kilt makers in the past and they were wearing pants, jeans, or shorts. Are you going to stop buying their products because they are in their kilts all the time?

Bottom line is that I like Xmarks and I like wearing my kilts.

[Chris Webb]

Colin, I truly enjoyed your response to my post! I've noticed the "American phenomenon" as well ... I've been giving it alot of thought.

It seems to me that part of what both broadens the kilted community and sometimes divides it is the way Americans take the best parts of what any given immigrant heritage brings with it, tayloring it a bit and then calling it American. All one needs to do is look at what we Americans call "Mexcan Food," or "French Fries," or "Chinese Food," all which have been "Americanized" to appeal to a broader and broader spectrum of people. I'm not even certain that French Fries were ever French at all.

The U.S. has been called the 'Great Melting Pot' ... trouble is that when something gets melted it loses some of its original form. The loss of the original form can be disconcerting to those who held it or hold it dear. And in the melting cultural distinctions blur and some things actually become cross cultured ... The entire classic Texan Outfit is a perfect example. The Texas Outfit is made up entirely of bastardized parts of at least 3 different cultures and exists nowhere else outside the American mid-West. There is no similar outfit in any of the donor cultures, only similar parts of it.

Kilts. Kilts are no different and as more and more kilts are worn and made in America some of what makes for a traditional kilt will be lost and some of what makes up a dozen other forms of cultural clothing will slowly be merged into it or added to it as an accessory. As this process unfolds and more and more men of little or no Scottish descent or heritage start to wear kilts then the kilt itself becomes American and wearing a kilt for reasons of heritage becomes less and less common among kilted men.

If heritage declines as a reason to wear a kilt then some other reason will replace it. In a society bent on keeping men in pants it is a rare kiltman who is not forarmed with reasons for why he is wearing one. Frankly, here in America, simply claiming Scottish descent as the culture of America melts all things Scottish more and more into the cultural whole will become a peculiar and rare reason. I'm guessing this evolution of kilting from Scottish to American will not go entirely without a fight from those who continue to hold firm to heritage as their primary reason for kilting.

It's very possible that I don't know what I'm talking about ... it's just as possible that I do. No matter what reason any particular man gives for wearing his kilts I will applaud him. As for any American wearing a kilt outside of reasons of Scottish Pride and Heritage I must wholey agree with Colin that they really do owe a 'thank you' to those brave enough to have opened a societal door just wide enough for any kilted man who wants to to walk through it. Scots did not do this, Scottish Heritage Groups did not do this ... these groups largely provided only an excuse to wear a kilt, "Oh, your Scottish, I guess it's cool." I'm Scots-Irish-American Indian, so I can just get away with it ... my son is Scots-Irish-American Indian-German-French, who knows what broadening mix of descents his children will have. If they wear kilts it will not likely be for reasons of Scottish heritage or pride.

It is the man who puts on his kilt and goes to Walmart for no particular reason that get's credit for broadening the spectrum of kiltwearers. He's not celebrating his heritage, not attending a Ren. Fair, not participating in a Holiday .... no, he's wearing it for Freedoms' sake. He's wearing it because he wants to and nobody can stop him. This kind of man will wear his kilt to work and open the door for others 'not of Scottish descent' to wear it there as well. Those who are privilaged enough to claim Scottish descent owe no thanks to this man, but for the increasing numbers of those who cannot stake such a claim then let Freedom be the reason they ....

Kilt On.

Chris Webb

[macwilkin]

Kilts. Kilts are no different and as more and more kilts are worn and made in America some of what makes for a traditional kilt will be lost and some of what makes up a dozen other forms of cultural clothing will slowly be merged into it or added to it as an accessory. As this process unfolds and more and more men of little or no Scottish descent or heritage start to wear kilts then the kilt itself becomes American and wearing a kilt for reasons of heritage becomes less and less common among kilted men.

If heritage declines as a reason to wear a kilt then some other reason will replace it. In a society bent on keeping men in pants it is a rare kiltman who is not forarmed with reasons for why he is wearing one. Frankly, here in America, simply claiming Scottish descent as the culture of America melts all things Scottish more and more into the cultural whole will become a peculiar and rare reason. I'm guessing this evolution of kilting from Scottish to American will not go entirely without a fight from those who continue to hold firm to heritage as their primary reason for kilting.

It's very possible that I don't know what I'm talking about ... it's just as possible that I do. No matter what reason any particular man gives for wearing his kilts I will applaud him. As for any American wearing a kilt outside of reasons of Scottish Pride and Heritage I must wholey agree with Colin that they really do owe a 'thank you' to those brave enough to have opened a societal door just wide enough for any kilted man who wants to to walk through it. Scots did not do this, Scottish Heritage Groups did not do this ... these groups largely provided only an excuse to wear a kilt, "Oh, your Scottish, I guess it's cool." I'm Scots-Irish-American Indian, so I can just get away with it ... my son is Scots-Irish-American Indian-German-French, who knows what broadening mix of descents his children will have. If they wear kilts it will not likely be for reasons of Scottish heritage or pride.

I beg your pardon; Scots and Scottish heritage groups most certainly did do something in helping introduce the general public to Highland attire; In the 19th century, the Highland Games introduced many non-Scots to Scottish culture, and the kilt came right along with it. Not to mention all of the St. Andrew's Societies, who held St. Andrew's Day and Burns Night services, suppers and balls. So please don't dismiss their contributions. They keep alive the story of the Scottish and Ulster-Scottish immigrant who came to these shores and made a contribution to their new country. As President Woodrow Wilson said, "Every line of strength in American history is colored with Scottish blood."

And as far as heritage goes, remember that your ideas are nothing new; the whole concept of American state and Canadian provincial tartans allows for anyone to wear that tartan, regardless of ethnic background. Many of these "non-Scots" still hold fast to traditional Highland attire, whilst wearing a tartan designed to be inclusive of all residents of a particular area. Even other ethnic groups, like the Italians, the Dutch, the Norwegians, etc. are adopting tartans and highlighting, not casting off, the connections between Scotland and their countries and people. Believe what you want to, Chris, but the kilt will not lose its Scottish roots and heritage, no matter how much you wish it.

He's not celebrating his heritage, not attending a Ren. Fair, not participating in a Holiday .... no, he's wearing it for Freedoms' sake. He's wearing it because he wants to and nobody can stop him. This kind of man will wear his kilt to work and open the door for others 'not of Scottish descent' to wear it there as well. Those who are privilaged enough to claim Scottish descent owe no thanks to this man, but for the increasing numbers of those who cannot stake such a claim then let Freedom be the reason they ....

Interesting...so I am less of a kiltwearer in your eyes because I do wear my kilt as a symbol of my heritage to Burns Suppers, St. Andrew's Society functions and educational programs that I present to local schools, etc.?

Todd

[pbpersson]

It is the man who puts on his kilt and goes to Walmart for no particular reason that get's credit for broadening the spectrum of kiltwearers. He's not celebrating his heritage, not attending a Ren. Fair, not participating in a Holiday .... no, he's wearing it for Freedoms' sake. He's wearing it because he wants to and nobody can stop him.

Oh....that's me! I wore my Utilikilt to PetCo tonight just because I thought it would be fun!

It was fun! Life is too short not to have fun!

[Raphael]

Wearing a kilt should not be seen as freedom as there is no law in our society that forbid men from wearing the kilt. I don't feel that I am more free by putting on a kilt because I don't know what I am freed from.

In order to feel free, a man needs to feel trapped by the society first. I have never felt like I am trapped. I don't feel that I am trapped that I have to wear a business suit for work. I feel good, comfortable and successful when I am in my suit. I bet either Colin or Todd feel like they are 'free men' when they wore their kilts.

Wearing the kilt should not be about freedom. Men do not need any reason to wear the kilt, except for the inspiration to wear it. We do not need to make up any excuse. I got the idea of wearing the kilt when I was a young boy, and I wasn't try to be free or different. I wanted to wear the kilt because I used to see them all the time during special ceremonies in Hong Kong. It was the Blackwatch and the Royal Scots who inspired me to wear the kilt.

If you want to feel free or brave, go wear a woman skirt.

[Moose McLennan]

Oh, the 'S' word ...

There must be a consensus somewhere. Lots of us enjoy a sense of occasion, and that's one thing a kilt can give you. Lots of us wear the kilt casually, and that's what this forum's about. Nobody here has a problem with full-time kilt-wearers. And I can't be the only one here who finds the notion of being tyrannised by trousers a little odd...

Anyone in a kilt is fine by me, whether they wear it once in a lifetime or every day.

Cheers
M.

[Raphael]

I'm not even certain that French Fries were ever French at all.

French Fries is Belgian.

Kilts are no different and as more and more kilts are worn and made in America some of what makes for a traditional kilt will be lost and some of what makes up a dozen other forms of cultural clothing will slowly be merged into it or added to it as an accessory. As this process unfolds and more and more men of little or no Scottish descent or heritage start to wear kilts then the kilt itself becomes American and wearing a kilt for reasons of heritage becomes less and less common among kilted men.

It will be a sad day if people no longer associate the kilt with Scotland and see it as an American way of life.

It is the man who puts on his kilt and goes to Walmart for no particular reason that get's credit for broadening the spectrum of kiltwearers. He's not celebrating his heritage, not attending a Ren. Fair, not participating in a Holiday .... no, he's wearing it for Freedoms' sake. He's wearing it because he wants to and nobody can stop him. This kind of man will wear his kilt to work and open the door for others 'not of Scottish descent' to wear it there as well. Those who are privilaged enough to claim Scottish descent owe no thanks to this man, but for the increasing numbers of those who cannot stake such a claim then let Freedom be the reason they ....

Do you think that you are better than us because we don't wear our kilts to work?

I don't wear my kilt for freedom sake or try to open the door for others 'not of Scottish Descent' to wear it. I don't wear mine for work because I don't see a point to it. I also don't wear it for comfort reason either. And yes, I have worn mine for Burns Suppers, Highland Games and participated in a St. Patrick's day parade.

I know a few full time kilt wearers in Vancouver, and they don't really care whether other people follow their footsteps at all. They wear the kilt for themselves and not for other people. They are not actively advocating that men should burn their pants and switch to the kilt 24/7.

I have said it before and I will say it again: there are times for kilts and there are times for pants/trousers/shorts/capri.

And do me a favour, please don't try to convince me that the kilt is perfect for bike riding, scuba diving, climbing, yoga, swimming, sky diving, rugby, soccer, hockey or bungee jumping.