Non-Scottish Kilts? HUH?!?

[Colin]

Here in the USA, maybe even more so in Canada, Kilts are slowly evolving from Scottish to Scottish-American (or Scottish-Canadian) and will eventually, evolve into simply American and Canadian kilts.

Chris, while I obviously can't speak for all of my country, but I think that Canadians generally just except that the kilt is Scottish. I don't think we have a need to make it our own.

Canada has a long history of Scottish settlers, regiments, and culture (the ceilidh, curling, etc, etc, etc,etc,). I may be mistaken about the current status of the BlackWatch (Todd will sort me out I am sure), but with the amalgumation of the Scottish regiments, Scotland no longer has the Black Watch, yet Canada does. We aren't trying to take it away from the Scots, we instead thank them for their influence and contribution in the shaping (along with many others of course) of our country and it's make up.

Imagine this. Yesterday after finishing a work out, I watched two young guys (20ish) get ready to leave the gym. Both put on very sporran like purses for guys that slung over their shoulder. Now it was only sporran-like in that it was very slim and opened at the top. I have seen several of these around in the past year or two (yet some people still think kilts aren't excepted ). Now what if these were marketed as a "sporran" in name alone to attract a mass market. We know they aren't sporrans, yet Joe Walmart doesn't. So is this the new American sporran?

But ... Kilts are bigger than Scotland and they are getting bigger all the time

That's thanks to those good Vegas buffets, buddy

To keep on topic though, the article by Matt that has already been mentioned is fantastic and well worth the read. I am always suprised when I hear that the kilt is as associated with the Irish as with the Scots in the US.

[macwilkin]

Someone should e-mail Burnett's & Struth in Ontario and tell them they're making "Scottish-Canadian" kilts then:

Welcome to Burnett's & Struth, Canada's leading Kilt maker and Supplier of Scottish Regalia

Welcome to the new revitalised web site for Burnetts & Struth, Ontario's leading tartan supplier and maker of traditional quality Scottish kilts.

--emphasis mine. TJW

[Colin]

Someone should e-mail Burnett's & Struth in Ontario and tell them they're making "Scottish-Canadian" kilts then:



--emphasis mine. TJW

That's kind of what I mean Todd, we accept that kilts are Scottish and we wear 'em.

[Hamish]

That's kind of what I mean Todd, we accept that kilts are Scottish.

But Colin, could it be that Chris was thinking of (Robert) R-Kilts, (Terry) BearKilts and (Steve) Freedom Kilts - the only Canadian kiltmakers I know personally. All these fine gentlemen, located in Canada, have designed and now tailor kilts, but not Scottish kilts. Theirs are quite different, and I would venture to call them Canadian kilts. In fact that is just what I do when I am asked about them! "This is a Canadain kilt", I say, in the same way that I describe my Utilikilts, USA Kilt and Amerikilts as "American kilts"; my Cornish National as a "Cornish kilt"; my Brithwe Dewi Sant as a "Welsh kilt" and my two Brittany tartans as "Breton kilts"!!

[Colin]

But Colin, could it be that Chris was thinking of (Robert) R-Kilts, (Terry) BearKilts and (Steve) Freedom Kilts - the only Canadian kiltmakers I know personally. All these fine gentlemen, located in Canada, have designed and now tailor kilts, but not Scottish kilts. Theirs are quite different, and I would venture to call them Canadian kilts. In fact that is just what I do when I am asked about them! "This is a Canadain kilt", I say, in the same way that I describe my Utilikilts, USA Kilt and Amerikilts as "American kilts"; my Cornish National as a "Cornish kilt"; my Brithwe Dewi Sant as a "Welsh kilt" and my two Brittany tartans as "Breton kilts"!!

Fair enough Hamish, but I believe all three of those kiltmakers lists their products as kilts not Scottish-Canadian kilts as Chris has suggested. I am also refereing to the view of the ordinary citizen, and not the people that make a living in the kilt market. I appreciate that kiltmakers have come out with new and innovative designs for kilts from firms based all over the world, but does that make the Kilt, as an entity rather than as a singular product, any less Scottish? I too think of Bear kilts as Canadian kilts, but I still think the Kilt as Scottish.

Out of curiousity, where would you classify some of the kilts from 21st century? Howie is Scottish and the kilts are made in Scotland, but they can get a bit far from the traditional kilt, does that make them American-Scottish kilts

[Hamish]

Fair enough Hamish, but I believe all three of those kiltmakers lists their products as kilts not Scottish-Canadian kilts as Chris has suggested. I am also refereing to the view of the ordinary citizen, and not the people that make a living in the kilt market. I appreciate that kiltmakers have come out with new and innovative designs for kilts from firms based all over the world, but does that make the Kilt, as an entity rather than as a singular product, any less Scottish? I too think of Bear kilts as Canadian kilts, but I still think the Kilt as Scottish.

Point taken, Colin. I agree that the traditional kilt is thought of as Scottish - as it should be - but I still maintain that the contemporary variations of it, unless designed and produced in Scotland, are not and should not be labelled as Scottish. I do all I can to emphasise this whenever my contemporary kilts attract comments.

Out of curiousity, where would you classify some of the kilts from 21st century? Howie is Scottish and the kilts are made in Scotland, but they can get a bit far from the traditional kilt, does that make them American-Scottish kilts

Why should they be thought of as "American-Scottish", I wonder? Neither the kilts, nor Howie, have any connection with America!! I must admit that I personally think of them as Scottish, but when questioned, or I become involved in a conversation about them, I refer to Howie's TFCK kilts as "contemporary Scottish kilts" and go on to explain that, although they may not be made in tartan fabrics, they are tailored along similar lines, and by the very same kiltmakers who produce them, as the traditional tartan kilts we all know, love and recognise. They are basically Scottish kilts with a modern twist!

[Colin]

Point taken, Colin. I agree that the traditional kilt is thought of as Scottish - as it should be - but I still maintain that the contemporary variations of it, unless designed and produced in Scotland, are not and should not be labelled as Scottish. I do all I can to emphasise this whenever my contemporary kilts attract comments.

That's my real point Hamish. Just because the kilt I am wearing is Canadian made and designed doesn't mean the Kilt, as an entity, is not Scottish. Chris seems to be implying (correct me if I am wrong) that Scotland is loosing the grasp on the kilt, and the Kilt will one day be seen as American, or Canadian, or Pakistani, etc rather than as a Scottish garment.

[Chris Webb]

Colin, I see your point about Canada ... It's just my own opinion but it seems like Canada has a much more laid back attitude than the USA.

Still, one only has to look to the increasing scope of the language of kilts that we speak here at Xmarks to acknowledge that the kilt has become more than just Scottish. What percentage of these new words and acronyms hale from Scotland? It even seems from this thread that historians are beginning to believe that the kilt never was just Scottish.

Matts' article truly is great reading. It's a wonderful account of the distant past, a well thought out explanation of where the kilt came from. I just can't help but wonder where kilts are going! If kilts ever really do 'take off' and become a common choice of menswear around the world historians will want to know why all us men who are increasingly distant from the birthplace of kilts by both time and space decided to .....

Kilt On.

Chris Webb

[Colin]

Still, one only has to look to the increasing scope of the language of kilts that we speak here at Xmarks to acknowledge that the kilt has become more than just Scottish. What percentage of these new words and acronyms hale from Scotland? It even seems from this thread that historians are beginning to believe that the kilt never was just Scottish.

Or it could come from a bunch of men talking on the internet nit picking and over thinking everything. It could be our desire to define everything, so that if certain things don't fit the mold, we expand the mold so that we can define it. Not sure how us watering down everything to make ourselves feel better (after all, we men need to know what category everything fits in or we are a bit uncomfortable ) makes the kilt less Scottish or loosens Scotland's claim to the kilt.

Which historians were those again? I haven't seen any historians on this board acknowledge that kilts were more than just Scottish in the past.

[macwilkin]

Which historians were those again? I haven't seen any historians on this board acknowledge that kilts were more than just Scottish in the past.

Quite right, Colin; if anything, Matt is arguing in his articles that the traditional Highland attire was adopted by other Celtic countries as a way to establish their own national identities, not that the Irish and the Welsh had their own district versions of the kilt.

T.