Huntly district vs. "Huntly Old"

[Andrew Green]

Hey everyone. I have some odd questions. I remember saying that the Gordon red looks a lot like the Huntly district... well, according to a couple places, the Gordon red is also called "Huntly Old", this is coming from www.district-tartans.com, as well as the Scottish Tartan Authority website.
I was wanting to get some Huntly district tartan, but now I am not so sure as to wether that would really be necessary. Of course, one could always justify this as a good excuse to get another section of cloth for a belted plaid... but does anyone know how far back the Huntly modern district tartan goes? I am a major geek, and am quite fond historical accuracy. If the Gordon red really is the old Huntly district tartan, then my search for another belted plaid doesn't have as much fuel behind it as before.
This is just interesting news to me, and was wondering if anyone has information to lend? As a side note, I almost always email Matt concerning such things, but I am sure that I have been quite annoying over past weeks! Ha ha ha.

[sirdaniel1975]

Andrew Green,

Interesting question.

The documentation for the Huntly district tartan is 1893. The tartan was believed to be worn during the Jacobite Rebellion of 1745. see link below

huntly


Gordon red/Huntly old is documented in 1819 Wilson's of Bannockburn. If it's any older, I do not know. see link below

Gordon red/Huntly old

Clan Gordon society might be able to help too.

House of Gordon


Daniel S. Williamson
My webpage

[Andrew Green]

sirdaniel1975:
The various snippets of information you have shared is exactly why I am asking. The Huntly district tartan was known to be worn at the time of the '45, by Gordons, and others (MacRae, and Ross all seem to be relatively derived from the modern Huntly district tartan, or perhaps it is derived from the various family tartans that bear similar cross-striping). But WHICH Huntly tartan is what seems to be in question, as I have not found information either way.. When I first talked to Matt about ordering cloth for a belted plaid, I wanted to get a Gordon tartan (family ties), and well, I like the red. It is known/documented to have been in use in the early 1800s, as the website you linked to shows, but Matt also told me that it is believed to still be older than that. The Gordon red is also known as Huntly old, and it really wouldn't be surprising that the Gordons would have adapted this as one of "their" tartans, given that Huntly had long been an important seat of power for the clan. I haven't emailed the clan society regarding the tartan, but I have poked a handful of other questions about. To me, this is relatively important, as the red, from what I have read, is likely the oldest pattern in use by the Gordons. Also, if the Huntly modern is not the same Huntly district tartan that was worn at the time of the 45, I wouldn't want to pick it up as a belted plaid...doesn't mean I wouldn't wear it in another fashion though. I am trying to keep things relatively historic in relevance to the older fashions, not too mention that I am just really interested in seeing where this conversation goes.

[sirdaniel1975]

Andrew Green,

yes, I'm sorry but I gave you dates that where not in your questions. I thought that's what you were asking, "which one is older, because you believe that one is more authentic?" Researching tartan is very difficult, and might even become expensive. I suggest finding out the original thread count of Huntly old, go to house of tartan website (weave your own tartan section) and plug in the color threads in the correct order with the proper thread counts to see what it looks like. Then see if Matt Newsome (or someone else who is reliable with rare tartans) can get a weaver to.... weave it. Then have your kilt made from that material... This might cost nearly twice as mouch as picking one of the stock tartans. Because you'll be paying someone to weave it and then someone else to make a kilt out of it.

Now, I'm not trying to change your mind, I completely understand what your frame of mind is. just be prepared for the original thread count to be unknown. It very well might be. In which case, you'll be right back where you started.

If you can solve your mistery or have it solved, good for you. That will be a very interesting tartan and quite the conversation piece.

[Andrew Green]

Oh, I already own a belted plaid in the Gordon red/old Huntly pattern. What was going through my head was weather the current Huntly district tartan was the one referred to as being worn prior to the '45, or if the Gordon red was that tartan. I love my belted plaid, I love the tartan pattern of the Gordon red...so no complaints there. Just trying to sort out this jumble of recent info.
The more you learn, the more questions you will have.

[sirdaniel1975]

Had some more time to think about this. We know the Huntly old is possibly based on an older source but not exactly the older source. Here's why, it might be based on a painting, thus making the current Gordon Red/Huntly Old the oldest representation possible. You can't acquire thread counts from most paintings. A reprodduction will be an approximation.

Well, I remembered I had this picture of a an 18th Century painting of William Gordon in Huntly tartan. It dates back to 1766 and is painted by Pompeo Batoni.



This might be the actual source for the tartan. There might not be a swatch of material in exsistence. The tartan might just have a common knowledge of being circa 1745-ish.

So, what you already own, might be the authenticity that you are going for.

[Andrew Green]

"So, what you already own, might be the authenticity that you are going for."
That's one of the things I am trying to find out.

That painting is quite nice. I'll look around to see if I can find a repro/print somewhere.

[MacWage]

Are you trying to find a pre-1745 tartan NOW associated with a family or their district?

OR

A tartan that WAS a family or district tartan before 1745?

If the former, then the discussion above (and your own knowledge) seems to be close to fitting the bill.

If the latter, then it must be said that it wasn't until the early 1800s that "family" or "district" tartans existed, meaning a particular pattern AND colors were associated with a PARTICULAR family or district.

For convenience and brevity, it is hard to beat Matt Newsome's articles:
On Tartan Myths:
http://albanach.org/facts.htm
AND on where tartans came from (their souces):
http://albanach.org/sources.htm

The above is why the dates sirdaniel1975 is referencing are important.

Slighly off topic, but related: Are the Hunter family part of the huntly district? My family includes some Hunter, which is also my uncle's and brother's middle names. I haven't really explored this family link, as it is not as close or "direct" as other names. Also, this is in the part of the family I know least about (my father's mother's mother's side- I Think :confused: ).

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Andy,

I got your email on this question, but then saw your post here so I thought I might answer for all to see.

Quickly, without recourse to my reference books at the moment, the Huntly tartan that was supposedly in use during the '45 is the red tartan that is commonly referred to as "Huntly District" today, and is very similar to the red Macrae tartan. This is *not* the same as the Old Huntly/Red Gordon tartan.

Off the top of my head, I'm not 100% certain how solid the evidence of pre '45 use is, other than this is the tradition associated with the tartan. I've still got your email and I'll try to dig up some info on that later on.

About the Old Huntly/Gordon Red tartan, this certainly does date back to 1819, because it was recorded that year in Wilsons of Bannockburn's Key Pattern Book. However, the tartans included in that book were not all designed in 1819 to be sure! This was a record of tartans that they had been producing up until that time, and remember that the company had been producing tartans since around 1765. The design of the Old Huntly tartan certain seems typical of other eighteenth century tartans. So stylistically, is seems likely tha this tartan is of eighteenth century origin. There may be more information to be had about this tartan, as well, though like I said I do not have recouse to my reference books at the moment.

I'll get back to you later!
Aye,
Matt

[Andrew Green]

Thanks for the input Matt. I know, I pester the snot out of you, and I apologize. Hmm... looks like I may have justification to buy another belted plaid Always a good thing, to be sure.

MacWage, I am trying to find out if a particular family tartan was around at the time of the '45. That doesn't necessarily mean that it was associated with the family at the time of the '45, but merely trying to see if it was used. It appears that the tartan I am referncing and the one worn, are indeed different patterns, but both seem like they would be quite appropriate. I am always one for increasing the collection though!