Evocative post in the Kilt Accessories forum - some thoughts

[LoftGuy]

Scott,

Very interesting post, indeed, and a number of additions to my reading list.

Bob

[MacWage]

I've heard very starkily different views on that book. Most seem favorable. The biggest problem is that it is by nature speculative, though as little as the author could manage. It is on my future reading list.


What strikes me in the whole matter is that vast number of diseases that are unique to a particular part of the world, yet have spread vastly through travel. The Americas has its share, but it was devastated by the ones brought by the explorers. the worst was small pox and hepititus, both of which are highly contagious and deadly. Nowadays, the home of deseases that threaten seems to be remote Africa, like Ebola.

Whatever "problems" 1491 has, it is great at noting the American natives the settlers met were shells of their former presence. It is like a foreign race had entered Europe right after the Black Death. Just imagine how they could have riden across Europe!

I wonder how much we can/should learn from the events between the explorers/settlers and those that already lived there.

Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

[Oatmeal Savage]

Oatmeal Savage (curious nick, no?), My father called me that when I was a lad.

Kevin

[Scott Gilmore]

Oatmeal Savage (curious nick, no?), My father called me that when I was a lad.

Kudos to Dad. I can just imagine the thrusting and flinging of oatmeal flecks and chunks hither and thither with great and energetic abandon. Good nick.

Regards,
Scott Gilmore

[Andrew Green]

Interesting. I have only scratched the article... but it seems like a good read. like others on here, I am also interested in aspects that we do not know. It's more fun to speculate sometimes.

[pdcorlis]

As always Scott, you've given us some interesting history to consider - THANKS!

[MacWage]

Scott,

I had not read the article yet (or book), but have read a number of reviews and talked to a few who had read it. It is definately interesting. In general, I try to hold judgement (pro or con) until I actually read it (or see it, for documentaries). The "specualtive" statement is from several of the reviews (by professional historians). I had not heard the Genghis Khan reference before, but have recognized the same point previously.

I too love reading about "unsettled" history, particularly King Arthur, Atlantis (Thera/Santorini), the Celtic Church and early Irish/Scottish history, MacBeth, and the many Biblical-related matters. Pre-Columbus Americas is more on the periphory of my interests, but "1491" intrigues me. By nature, the historical topics that have the most question marks (either by a marked lack of primary sources or enormous legends and myths layed above the actual history) leads to the most speculative history. I am always interested in what sources and arguements are used to make a point. Mann tries to limit the speculation, though eliminating it is impossible, especially for the topic. Cahill's "How the Irish Saved Civilization" suffers from the same problem, lack of primary sources (Cahill by the destruction of the Viking raids and Mann by the lack of readable native writings and the level of the disease induced destruction) and attempts to make up for that by archeology and other fields.

Thanks for bringing up the article!!

[Scott Gilmore]

I've heard very starkily different views on that book. Most seem favorable. The biggest problem is that it is by nature speculative, though as little as the author could manage. It is on my future reading list.

What strikes me in the whole matter is that vast number of diseases that are unique to a particular part of the world, yet have spread vastly through travel. The Americas has its share, but it was devastated by the ones brought by the explorers. the worst was small pox and hepititus, both of which are highly contagious and deadly. Nowadays, the home of deseases that threaten seems to be remote Africa, like Ebola.

Whatever "problems" 1491 has, it is great at noting the American natives the settlers met were shells of their former presence. It is like a foreign race had entered Europe right after the Black Death. Just imagine how they could have riden across Europe!

I wonder how much we can/should learn from the events between the explorers/settlers and those that already lived there.

Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

You are absolutely correct - and I don't think Mann would argue the point. His contentions are speculative (as are those of all historians who were not immediately present at the historical moment). What he might argue - and with some merit - is that other "modern" views of pre-Columbian events are also equally speculative. He might say that his speculations are - based on a broader base of sources and study - better speculation.

In a most illuminating passage, Mann states: "Smallpox not only killed Wayna Qhapaq, it killed his son and designated heir -- and his brother, uncle, and sister-wife. The main generals and much of the officer corps died, wrote the Inka chronicler Santacruz Pachacuti Yamqui Salcamayhua, 'all their faces covered with scabs.' So did the two regents left in Qosqo (Cuzco) by Wayna Qhapaq to administer the empire. After the dying Wayna Qhapaq locked himself away so that nobody could see his pustulous face, Salcamayhua reported, he was visited by a terrifying midnight vision. Surrounding him in his dream were 'millions upon millions of men.' The Inka asked who they were. 'Souls of the lost,' the multitude told him. All of them 'would die from the pestilence,' each and every one.

The story is probably apocryphal, but its importance isn't. Smallpox has an incubation period of about twelve days, during which time sufferers, who may not know they are sick, can infect anyone they meet. With its fine roads and great population movements, Tawantinsuyu was perfectly positioned for a major epidemic. Smallpox radiated throughout the empire like ink spreading through tissue paper. Millions of people simultaneously experienced its symptoms: high fever, vomiting, severe pain, oozing blisters everywhere on the body. (Emphasis mine) Unable to number the losses, the Jesuit Martin de Murúa said only that the toll was 'infinite thousands.'"

Were an equivalent catastrophe to occur in today's United States, approximately one-hundred and thirty million human beings would die a horribly painful death. That would most assuredly cause disruption to our ability to maintain a state, much less defend it from incursion. Half our government, army, police, civil servants and private sector work force would disappear within a fortnight and a half - a virtual blink of an eye. Poof!

The vulnerability of the Inkas is further clarified when it is understood that (according to the author) smallpox evolved from a cattle virus called cowpox, a now-extinct equine virus responsible for horsepox, or perhaps the camelpox virus, which affects camels, as the name suggests. People who survive the virus become immune to it (hence the vaccine). "In Europe, the virus was such a constant presence that most adults were immune. Because the Western hemisphere had no cows, horses, or camels, smallpox had no chance to evolve there. Indians had never been exposed to it -- they were 'virgin soil,' in epidemiological jargon. (Again, emphasis mine.)

... It is like a foreign race had entered Europe right after the Black Death. Just imagine how they could have riden across Europe!

You belie your cognitive skills, my friend. Mann himself states most tellingly in his narrative--borrowed from Alfred Crosby--, if "Genghis Khan had arrived with the Black Death, this book would not be written in a European language."

The upshot is that it is clear to me that the scale of events that lead to the domination of the Western Hemisphere by European-Americans is clearly the subject of fascinating and as-yet unsettled study. Personally, historical subjects that are still open to discussion interest me more intensely than "settled" historical issues. I apologize if my layman's enthusiasm spills over a bit abundantly into this forum, which deals only very peripherally with historical issues of this nature. I suppose this reflects my affection for the nature of the community that has developed here.

Regards,
Scott Gilmore